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Midnight polarized breaker direction

JJJJ

Aspiring apprentice
Joined
Feb 25, 2021
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OK. I may be the only person on this planet who just learned this. However found it interesting. The following Youtube video from Midnight Solar discusses the direction the breaker should be placed. It starts at about 4:30 in the video. I then included a photo of the breaker. My question is does the labeling on the breaker make the recommended direction of installation clear?


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Seems clear to me. In a DC circuit, the + of the breaker goes towards the side with greater energy potential.
I respect that. Thanks for replying.

Like your tag line about "learning new tricks". This is a new journey for me. Much of this is likely old information for those accustomed to dc circuits.
 
DC arc is harder to break than AC with its zero crossing, bidirectional current flow.

Particularly on higher voltage DC involved with PV array, there are several methods used to extinguish arc when a breaker is opened.

Arc is very hot, ionized plasma.

To break a DC arc quickly there are several things that can be used individually and/or in combination.

1) A grid fin metal array to break up the arc.
2) Using the fact that hot plasma rises (flares upwards).
3) Using magnetic bias to push the arc in a desired direction.
4) larger switch gap and pushing arc to create a longer path.

A high voltage DC breaker often incorporates all methods.

Magnets are placed on sides of breaker to direct arc direction. This means polarity of current flow has to match magnetic bias to get the arc to bend in the desired direction, into the grid fin arc breakup array. The '+' indicator means the most positive connection when breaker is open. This would be the panel's positive output lead.

Using the heat of arc which flares upward means the orientation of breaker must also be correct. Avoid upside down mount or sideways mounting. Any text on front of breaker should be right reading.

Breaking PV circuit, this is 600 vdc array. This is what a PV breaker has to deal with. (And why some homeowners' insurance companies are beginning to refuse to insure homes with PV panels on roof)
PV arc 600v array.jpg
 
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I respect that. Thanks for replying.

Like your tag line about "learning new tricks". This is a new journey for me. Much of this is likely old information for those accustomed to dc circuits.
I don't know a lot about this stuff, but when the manufacturer tells me exactly how to use their product I always listen.
 
The '+' indicator means the most positive connection when breaker is open.
The + symbol indicates the source capable of the maximum power, not the maximum voltage.

Take the case of a Midnight Solar Classic 150 solar controller with a 5000 watt array connected to a 826 a.h. battery bank and the controller massively short circuits....

maximum power from controller to battery......5000 watts
maximum power from battery to controller 150 kw with a 500 amp class T fuse at battery
 
The one thing that drew me to Midnight Solar is the totally complete support of the customer. I was looking for a really good, no fail solar controller after having spent way too much time trying to get some equipment to be reliable. Before I bought anything I poked around to all the manufacturers to see if customer support existed. At Midnight Solar i found expertise readily available with just a phone call or a visit to their forum. Bought a Classic 150, never had a problem since. My system now looks like what you see behind Ryan’s right shoulder except mine has two Classic 150’s and two Kid SCC’s. connected to the DC breaker box. Got what i paid for no regrets. All of their video’s are very instructional
The above video is a perfect example of the expertise found at Midnight Solar


<DISCLAIMER > I worked with Ryan on the Kid prototypes, I do not work for Midnight, the only reward that I get from Midnight Solar is a peek at surplus items, etc and the best support
 
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I've been using Midnite SCC, E-Panels, Breakers and more all along and have never had any problems with their equipment. Their support has always been Marvelous and they deliver exactly what is advertised. Good Doc's and supported well with video's... albeit some of that does need to be refreshed which I am sure they will be doing with the release of the new gear. As @Q-Dog said, listen to & follow the Manufacturers instructions.

I'm glad that @JJJJ put this topic up, it comes up every once in a while due to the general confusion around Polarized breakers.
 
The following Youtube video from Midnight Solar discusses the direction the breaker should be placed. It starts at about 4:30 in the video.

I watched the video. He said which way to connect the breaker.
He did not detail the various circuit failure scenarios involving shorts that could develop (e.g. rat chews through insulation in PV wires causing short) and explain how the breakers would always be called upon to interrupt current in the direction they were designed for.

I say that polarized breakers can't be used properly in either PV or SCC/battery connections (PV being higher voltage approaching breaker rating has better chance to fail.)
They would be fine between a power source and a load, where the load can't store energy and drive back in the other direction. In other words, DC branch circuits.

Best to use non-polarized breakers instead. Midnight's 175A breakers are non-polarized. They have non-polarized breakers in their catalog that look appropriate for PV arrays.

I don't know a lot about this stuff, but when the manufacturer tells me exactly how to use their product I always listen.

Listen, but consider they may be wrong. If they are, do something better. (not use that particular product differently, rather use a different product that is appropriate.)

I've presented reasoning several times why polarized breakers can't provide the required backfeed protection for multiple parallel strings. If we haven't heard of wires or breaker burning up due to breaker not interrupting arc, that is because the shorted string scenario is rare enough that there have been zero or few failures.

I could easily assemble a parallel string scenario and close a switch to induce short that would create conditions matching Midnight's description of what causes polarized breakers to burn.


My recommendation is to only used non-polarized DC breakers for multiple parallel PV strings (even just 2 strings, if individual breaker per string is used.) Or, gang the handles of all polarized breakers in the array.

The + symbol indicates the source capable of the maximum power, not the maximum voltage.

I disagree.
The "+" symbol on a polarized breaker indicates that when breaker is opened, that terminal needs to end up at a more positive voltage relative to the "-" terminal. That determines direction of electron flow in the arc between contacts. A permanent magnet creates a magnetic field that deflects the arc into an arc chute where it is quenched. If electron flow in arc was reversed, arc would be deflected away from arc chute and would just keep burning.

When you have charge controller connected to battery, during charging the charge controller provides higher potential (e.g. 60V vs. battery 48V). When PV source is gone, battery may have reached 60V and charge controller has capacitors that may be at 60V. If disconnected, capacitors gradually drain to 0V, or if failure shorts charge controller it is 0V and can sink a lot of current. A breaker between battery and charge controller has to work bidirectionally so does not seem like the place to use a polarized breaker. However, with only about 12V between charge controller output and battery, it may work OK to interrupt current even in reverse direction. So putting "+" on battery and "-" on charge controller positive terminal is something you might get away with.

For protecting multiple parallel PV strings, I don't believe there is a safe way to use polarized breakers. The wires could have a short at input to SCC, or the wires could have a short of a single string at other side of breaker. A polarized breaker will only interrupt the arc in one of those directions, will sit there burning in the other. It will likely work every time it is switched, without a short. But if a short develops and the breaker is tripped or thrown with wrong polarity applied, it will burn.
 
I say that polarized breakers can't be used properly in either PV or SCC/battery connections

I agree. While I'm no electrical expert, after looking into the polarized breakers I threw up my hands and sourced non-polarized breakers for any circuit where current could flow either direction.
 
I have Polarized Breakers and Non-Polarized in use, never had any issues whatsoever. I did follow instructions as provided. I feel I should point out that Polarized Breakers are being rolled into codes and some have already adopted them as a requirement. Codes & Regs are evolving faster & faster as Solar & Wind is deployed globally. Even though I will never be connected to any grid, I still build to pass code and get it checked... They charged rules since I setup and now as I am expanding yet again, I will have to retrofit a few extras that were not previously required. Gotta keep Mr Insurance happy... sometimes that can be such a ............
 
I did read the referenced article from Midnite. It was very informative.

As a manufacturer Midnite bears the responsibility of building a product that is safe in the market. As a market leader they strive to build their products to handle the worst of conditions. In the conditions studied they subjected the breaker to excess volts, excess amps and improperly grounded equipment. Not ideal conditions regardless of the approach or breaker used.

As builders we strive to build our systems as "safely" as we can. Countless hours are spent calculating battery requirements, inverter and or charger decisions, wire sizes, breaker choices, solar panel configurations and other decisions as the build progresses.

I've lost track of the number of times I have taken my batteries apart and put them back together. Granted this was initially inexperience but I learned a Ton in the process. The same goes for my system layout. Items were positioned, moved and positioned again in an effort to find the best layout for my situation. A different person may have laid things entirely differently based on their needs.

There is something we all strive for and that is safety. We study the specs and make sure there are safety margins as needed. A perfect example is the "common sense" 1.25 rule discussed elsewhere when calculating possible solar panel output.

I continue to learn and grow during this journey. As I continue along this path my approaches and views will likely adapt to changes in technology, codes and general knowledge. I first cut my teeth with computers in the early 1980s. My first computer was a monochrome monitor, 160 k floppy drive and 64k of RAM. It cost me $3,300. A typical cell phone far exceeds that ability at a fraction of the cost. I suspect technological updates will continue to challenge my "comfort zone" as I continue along this path. Were I to design and build this a few years in the future I would likely be considering a whole new set of questions and issues.
 
I've been on this one lately, too, and from my reading and logic on current flow, I'm with @Hedges & @HRTKD.

Annoyingly, I bought the MNEPV breakers and boxes in a moment of not considering exactly what I was getting… and paid probably a decent chunk again in shipping as for the boxes themselves.

Worse, per the Midnite breaker chart, they were supposed to be discontinuing the polarized breakers back in 2021, but I can't find anyone who actually sells the new non-polarized version, including Midnite themselves. Todd at Midnite didn't seem to know anything about them when I asked about how to make sure I got the non-polarized version in the last week.
 
That video, although still relevant is a bit old now as there are many more breakers available.

Polarized breakers are fine for use in a PV combiner box with 3 or more strings in parallel for their intended operation. In this case, the intended use is so that when one or more panels are shorted in one of the strings, that string's positive voltage will be less positive than the other PV strings that are ganging up on that shorted string. That will always be the case for the purpose of a PV combiner. The combiner breakers are not intended to be toggled while in normal operation but if I think that in most cases, the voltage differential will be very low.... Especially if all strings are unloaded. Millions of these breakers have been sold in the last 20+ years.
There has never been an issue as far as I know with polarized breakers used in a PV combiner box.

That being said, the MNPV breaker series are supposed to be changing to non-polarized at some time. I thought they would be non-polar by now but I guess that CBI is taking some extra time getting ready for that. And they will be more expensive.

As for a breaker that is used for a "disconnect" for the PV array that has already been combined, into the PV input of the SCC, positive should be in the direction of the PV array when the SCC breaks because they almost always break with their FETs shorted. The PV array will always be more positive than the battery even when using a PWM controller. Again, non-polarized breakers will be the norm in the future but the panel mount (not din mount) breakers are usually used for the disconnect.

As for the battery side breaker, non-polarized is definitely preferred but if you had to choose a polarized breaker, I would place the positive end of the breaker towards the battery positive terminal because it has much more current capability than the PV output of the SCC, but also the SCC output when that breaker trips, if it does trip from overcurrent, should have a much reduced voltage differential between the SCC's positive terminal and the batterie's positive terminal. Again, if the SCC's battery terminal should short, the polarity would be correct.

But the battery to SCC should be non-polarized in case, say, the SCC's connection from its PV+ to battery+ should short and the PV array is HV, then the polarity could cause an arcing breaker.

I am pretty sure that all of MidNite's panel mount breakers (Carling) are non-polarized. These go down to 80 amps now I believe.

Remember that for very low expected currents or very low voltage differential between the breaker terminals, there is a low likelihood of continued arcing. Having said all this, a non-polarized breaker is best.

boB

PS, here is a JPG of MidNite's breakers. Trying to coax them into making a bit higher resolution version...

 
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As for the battery side breaker, non-polarized is definitely preferred but if you had to choose a polarized breaker, I would place the positive end of the breaker towards the battery positive terminal because it has much more current capability than the PV output of the SCC, but also the SCC output when that breaker trips, if it does trip from overcurrent, should have a much reduced voltage differential between the SCC's positive terminal and the batterie's positive terminal. Again, if the SCC's battery terminal should short, the polarity would be correct.

But the battery to SCC should be non-polarized in case, say, the SCC's connection from its PV+ to battery+ should short and the PV array is HV, then the polarity could cause an arcing breaker.

I am pretty sure that all of MidNite's panel mount breakers (Carling) are non-polarized. These go down to 80 amps now I believe.

Remember that for very low expected currents or very low voltage differential between the breaker terminals, there is a low likelihood of continued arcing. Having said all this, a non-polarized breaker is best.

boB

PS, here is a JPG of MidNite's breakers. Trying to coax them into making a bit higher resolution version...

I have an all Midnight system with MNPV6 combiners with MNPV breakers and a MNDC-15 circuit breaker box with MNDC panel mount breakers for all the solar controllers wired as per midnight’s instruction and have never had a problem. The DC breaker box also has the breakers for the Exeltech inverters and the dc to dc converters. Never has an issue. I am very familiar with Carling tech for many years in industry and I do see the reason that Midnight sourced that breaker line.

This issue was discussed on the midnight forum many years ago
 
MidNite has up to 100 amps at 150VDC in the CBI QY 1" wide series. We have up to 100 amps in the 3/4" wide panel mount Carling C series. We also now have 300 amps in a triple wide C series. It is 60 or80VDC, can't remember.
The new .5" 150VDC non polarized breakers have been delayed by CBI for almost two years. Gosh, I thought we were bad with dates? They also have in the .5" wide series a 300VDC polarized. We have only one or two values. CBI really took it in the shorts with Covid and they just haven't been able to recover. We do have a 50 amp, 600VDC 1" wide din rail polarized in stock for DIY E-panels now.
I will try to get our poster updated in the next few weeks. There are so many breakers now with these new polar and non polar! The old QY series will be going away when their tooling wears out. We do not know if that is 4 months or a year? CBI builds 30,000 QY series breakers per day, so I don't think they are going away in the near term, but we just don't know. We are trying to stock heavy as people are not going to be happy with the increase in price.
By the way we have tested 15 and 20 amp breakers with 150VDC and backwards polarity at hundreds of amps. There is no problem tripping.
Another tidbit of information for you....I was informed years ago by a CBI engineer that their AC and DC breakers are actually built the same. In a pinch you can actually use a DC breaker in an AC circuit, but not the other way around. CBI may be the exception if they are actually made the same internally, but an inspector would never allow this, so don't do it other than for an emergency. You want to be code compliant to make sure your fire insurance is alive and well.
 
I use Midnight Breakers thru out my system....

15a-20a in the Midnight PV combiner boxes w/quick disconnect - https://www.amazon.com/MidNite-Solar-MNEPV15-Midnite-Solar-MNEPV15/dp/B007IAAGPE/ref=sr_1_3
60a - near the Midnite Classics to disconnect incoming PV to work on things - https://www.amazon.com/MidNite-Solar-Breaker-150VDC-MNEPV60/dp/B00BSYSLXU/ref=sr_1_1 The +(s) are toward the Classics which is not correct per this discussion but is used primarily as a switch.
80a - between the Classics and the battery buss - https://www.amazon.com/MidNite-Sola-MNEDC-80-Panel-Breaker/dp/B07C61QHSM
250a - between the battery buss and the AIMS/SGP 12,000w inverters - https://www.solar-electric.com/mnedc250.html
--------------
SACE S3 400a w/shunt-trip as the main BMS (Batrium) controlled master battery bank shut-off. The SACE has a clearly labeled "load" direction but of course the charge current is routinely as much as the load current - so it's bi-directional on a routine basis.

Beside using these to turn things off to work on the system now and then, I've had successful trips (acting as one would expect) on both the 80a and 250a breakers.

The 80a tripped once when one of the Midnight Classic 150s spiked to >80a of charging current before I wised up and limited charge current.
The 250a tripped when the Inverter tried to pull 18000w to start the old AC compressor before converting to a whole house Heat Pump in 2021.
1681969553377.png1681969786617.png

I've just reached 5 years of continuous operation and have full confidence in all of these Midnite breakers.
 
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By the way we have tested 15 and 20 amp breakers with 150VDC and backwards polarity at hundreds of amps. There is no problem tripping.

Do you mean similar (incorrect) test as what was done to this 63A breaker which failed backwards?
Difference being hundreds of amps rather than just 99A, and 150V rather than 165V, and it functioned successfully?


Same series breaker?

 
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