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Requirements of PG&E in California

caesarv

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I am new to solar and am beginning a mostly DIY installation of a system based on the EG4 18Kpv (no micro-inverters.) I am planning on about 15kW of battery backup. I am a retired electrical engineer, but do not know much about power systems. I am in California and will have to deal with PG&E. Right now, I have no idea what requirements they will have to allow me to hook up my 18Kpv to the grid...or even if I can. I have a 100A service panel that is already full. Fortunately, my heat, cooktop, and water heater are all gas, although we did just buy a Tesla. Incoming power lines are underground; I have no idea as to the wire size. House was built in 1991. I know they will probably have to install a new meter, but how do I tap into that? A meter collar would be ideal but I don't think those are approved by PGE yet. Will they provide grid access or do I need provide some box that they can hook into? Will I need to rip out my old panel and put in a new one? I assume I will need a permit for this electrical hookup, but I do not plan on getting a permit for my solar panels...will PGE require that or will they only care about the connection to the 18Kpv? And will I be able to feed back power to the grid? Too many questions!

I know I am going into this blindly. I am planning on getting some professional help later, but would like to know what I have to look forward to.
 
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There are quite a few California people on the forum that have DIYed grid tie projects with PG&E, including myself. Vast majority on NEM2 but we probably sort of know a few things about NEM3.

Have you tried taking a look at the many detailed threads? It may help to call out what you missed. Admittedly they are excessively long

If people don’t spot your thread feel free to @ me later in the week and I will address the questions.
 
Hey Caes! I’m on a similar journey! I’m even more noob than you to this. I’m not an engineer but luckily I have a friend who’s been an electrician for nearly 30 years. I’ve got PG&E too and started with upgrading my panel. Our house was/is pretty much in original 1960s condition (125amp main panel service). I’m also looking at the eg4 ecosystem. I’m probably going to go with two 18 KPVs feeding into a 60+kwh eg4 rack system.

I decided to go with the biggest panel I could, which is a 400amp panel to future proof as much as possible . I went with a siemens solar ready panel. I contacted PG&E and verified the model i wanted was gtg before i bought it. Most folks can live with the 200amp panel though. I choose siemens because there were two name brands most electricians I talked to liked, which was siemens and square d.

Both have a really long history which you’ll want because these are the companies who’ll be supplying your breakers for however long you have that panel.

Square d had no 400 amp solar ready options but siemens did. The siemens solar ready panels seem to be built for line side tap allowing you to have a larger solar setup.

We were lucky because we are an overhead feed in town which allows PG&E to bump up our service without having to run larger gauge lines to our house.

Also, i was talking to some electrical supply guys today and they said they had a customer who had bought square d’s 200 amp energy center(square d’s fanciest solar ready panel) without checking with pg&e for compatibility and just found out they’re fancy panel isn’t PG&E compliant 🤦‍♂️
 
18kPV may have a NEM3 problem with PCS.

PCS requirements may be avoidable if you do it as a non export system which I believe PG&E does recognize. In that case you'd have EG4 export limit lock it at 0 export. I'm not sure that PG&E would accept that, but it seems likely.
 
You might do a line-side tap, 100A fused disconnect, feed 18kpv from that.

If you can free up 2 slots in your panel by using tandem breakers or paralleling a couple circuits onto one breaker, then you can put in a backfed "generator" breaker, interlocked with the main breaker and fed from 18kpv

You might get NEM 3.0, use PowerPro battery with 18kpv (UL listed ESS). Programed to store power then export during high rates in the evening.


My own place I'm working on right now had 100A main panel. I installed a new 200A main breaker next to it, which will feed new 200A sub panel and 100A disconnect for PV.
 
You might get NEM 3.0, use PowerPro battery with 18kpv (UL listed ESS). Programed to store power then export during high rates in the evening.
This export will hit the PCS certification problem. I think the people working through it right now with PG&E must be on NEM3 at this point in 2024.
 
I am new to solar and am beginning a mostly DIY installation of a system based on the EG4 18Kpv (no micro-inverters.) I am planning on about 15kW of battery backup. I am a retired electrical engineer, but do not know much about power systems. I am in California and will have to deal with PG&E. Right now, I have no idea what requirements they will have to allow me to hook up my 18Kpv to the grid...or even if I can. From the link I posted above, Hedges(2nd post) mentions that you can start the registration process on PG&E's website and they basically have a drop down menu of PG&E compliant gear. I have a 100A service panel that is already full. Fortunately, my heat, cooktop, and water heater are all gas, although we did just buy a Tesla. Incoming power lines are underground; I have no idea as to the wire size. This is one area where I think it might get pricey. When we went to PG&E to do our panel, because we had an overhead feed, no new wiring needed to be run to our house to facilitate our main panel upgrade and even if they did, they wouldn't have to do any excavation work. Your house is on the opposite spectrum, I think. House was built in 1991. I know they will probably have to install a new meter, but how do I tap into that? A meter collar would be ideal but I don't think those are approved by PGE yet. I'd look into the siemens solar ready panels, See the illustrations on page 2 & 3 of this: https://cache.industry.siemens.com/dl/files/578/109793578/att_1131958/v1/SIE_BR_SolarSolutions.pdf. Also, when you're dealing with PG&E to do the service upgrade or the panel switch, I would make sure the panel you're picking is PG&E compliant beyond just being EUSERC and CA Title 24 compliant. Will they provide grid access or do I need provide some box that they can hook into? Will I need to rip out my old panel and put in a new one? Hedges posted up a workaround in this thread, so maybe not? I have a friend who's been an electrician working out of the IBEW for nearly 30 years. He's close to you, based out of the San Jose Metro-Area. He might be looking for more side work. If he is, I'm sure he can give you a pretty good rundown of what it would take to get you into a new panel. I'm pretty sure the run down would either be free or very cheap. Let me know if you want me to ask him. I assume I will need a permit for this electrical hookup, but I do not plan on getting a permit for my solar panels I'm pretty sure you'll need a permit for both, especially if the solar panels are roof mounted, I'd also expect the building dept to want a engineering report showing the roof system is capable of supporting the extra weight. Depending on timing, you might be able to put the electrical hookup of your new panel and solar system on a single permit. This could save you a bit on the permit fees. ...will PGE require that or will they only care about the connection to the 18Kpv? And will I be able to feed back power to the grid? From my understanding, you'll need to get into a contract with PG&E to backfeed into their grid and i believe they have requirements for what type of solar panels you can use. Too many questions!

I know I am going into this blindly. I am planning on getting some professional help later, but would like to know what I have to look forward to. This maybe a helpful data point, my 400 AMP panel install cost me about 6k OTD not including permits and there was no cost levied by PG&E.



I'm a bit of a forum noob too. My replies are in green above.
 
18kPV may have a NEM3 problem with PCS.

PCS requirements may be avoidable if you do it as a non export system which I believe PG&E does recognize. In that case you'd have EG4 export limit lock it at 0 export. I'm not sure that PG&E would accept that, but it seems likely.

I don't understand what the issue is regarding PCS.
Was that to limit 18kpv to 16A backfeeding into 100A panel? Limit backfeed to grid?

My suggestion was line side tap, so PV backfeeds or draws between meter and 100A main breaker.
The issue I could see there is if panel draws 100A and 18kpv has loads and also draws 100A, 200A from a 100A service.

PG&E let me put in a 200A main breaker without them upgrading size of the drop, about 2 awg aluminum. (I'm guessing their transformer and its fuses can't exceed the wire rating, which they've indicated is about 150A.)

He could do what I've done, put a breaker immediately after the meter, then branch to panel and inverter. Possibly, his existing hardware has wires between the two so yank meter and route wires to a separate breaker box.

He could remove all branch breakers from the panel, put in one 100A breaker to feed a 200A sub-panel, relocate branch circuits there and put PV breaker there (or have that 100A panel feed both a sub panel and the inverter.)
 
I don't understand what the issue is regarding PCS.
Was that to limit 18kpv to 16A backfeeding into 100A panel? Limit backfeed to grid?
PCS is a pretty broad term. I believe in this case it is to make sure they know where the power backfed out of the battery inverter came from originally.

Enphase PCS has quite a few modes.

This is one of the PCS modes PG&E allows.

1714229188690.png

It also includes a couple to allow a large number of batteries to be stacked for capacity without exceeding busbar capacity. PG&E doesn’t care about that.


(This older one is kind of unreadable)

 
I don't understand what the issue is regarding PCS.
Was that to limit 18kpv to 16A backfeeding into 100A panel? Limit backfeed to grid?
PCS is calculating solar generation and grid import charging so that imported power can't be later exported. The rule says you can't arbitrage by importing power at one rate and then exporting at a higher rate.

Power is fungible though, which makes the calculation quite complex. Merely limiting export to a certain amperage definitely doesn't cover it.

And it's not an electrical consideration like the 120% rule or anything about overloading anywhere in the system.
 
OK, so just to comply with tariff requirement that battery doesn't get charged from the grid, then later discharged to grid?

If only charged from PV, then allowed to discharge into grid?
If charged from grid, then only allowed to discharge into loads?

So PCS measures those current/power and ensures rules are obeyed?


I have Sunny Boy Storage with LG RESU-10H battery. It uses CT around grid connection and data cables to Sunny Boy GT PV inverter.

Multiple operating modes. One shaves exports by charging battery, shaves imports by discharging battery. In that case, battery only ever feeds 0% to 100% of power drawn from house, never backfeeds.

It has the information but don't know if it has settings to charge with up to 100% of what GT PV produces even when drawing from grid.

It can get a forced charge from grid. Although not documented, it can force export to grid (by shaving imports to a negative number rather than positive.)

So is the issue that PG&E won't allow any battery inverter unless certain columns of CEC spreadsheet are checked?

My equipment is on the CEC ESS list. EG4 also has a number of systems, but I can't tell from the number what inverter or battery:

Manufacturer NameBrand1Model NumberTechnologyPV DC Input Capability
UL 9540 Certification​
UL 1741 Supplement SB CertificationUL 1741 Supplement SA TestingUL 1741 SA13 Volt-VarUL 1741 SA
Freq-Watt
Volt-Watt
UL 1741 SA
Disable Permit Service
Limit Active Power
Common Smart Inverter Profile Conformance​
Monitor Key Data
Scheduling
DescriptionNameplate Energy CapacityNameplate PowerNominal VoltageMaximum Continuous Discharge Rate4
UL 1741 (3rd Ed.) Supplement SB
Certification​
UL 1741 Supplement SA
Certification (SA8-SA13)5​
UL 1741 SA
Freq-Watt
Volt-Watt
UL 1741 SA
Disable Permit Service
Limit Active Power
Inverter CSIP Conformance6​
Monitor Key Data
Scheduling
Attestation
Manufacturer Declared Roundtrip EfficiencyCertified JA12 Control Strategies1Declaration for JA12 Submitted1NotesCEC Listing DateLast Update
Certifying EntityCertificate Date (mm/dd/yyyy)Edition of UL 95403rd EditionSA8-SA13RPP2SA14-SA15SA17-SA18CSIP3Attestation(kWh)(kW)(Vac)(kW)Certifying EntityCertificate Date [mo/day/yr]Certifying EntityCertificate Date [mo/day/yr]Firmware Version(s) TestedCertificate Date [mo/day/yr]Listing Date (mo/day/yr)
Issuing Entity​
Document Date (mo/day/yr)​
Listing Date(%, AC-AC)1(mm/dd/yyyy)(mm/dd/yyyy)
SMA AmericaSMA-ESS-SBS-5.0-RESU10HLithium IonNTUV Rheinland of North America7/23/2019Ed. 1 : 2016NYYYYY*Y5 kW, 9.8 kWh, 240 Vac lithium-ion storage system9.852405No Information SubmittedNo Information SubmittedUL[12/14/2017][1.00.04.R][12/14/2017]2/11/2020UL12/16/201912/16/2019No Information SubmittedNo Information SubmittedN11/1/20192/11/2020
EG4 Electronics LLCPP-16/280A1-18K1-AWLL [240V]Lithium Iron PhosphateYIntertek10/19/2023Ed. 3 : 2023YNNNNNN10 kW, 14.3 kWh, energy storage system14.31024010Intertek[4/20/2023]No Information SubmittedNo Information SubmittedNo Information SubmittedNo Information SubmittedNo Information SubmittedNo Information SubmittedNo Information SubmittedNo Information SubmittedNo Information SubmittedNo Information SubmittedN12/1/2023
 
PCS is calculating solar generation and grid import charging so that imported power can't be later exported. The rule says you can't arbitrage by importing power at one rate and then exporting at a higher rate.

Power is fungible though, which makes the calculation quite complex. Merely limiting export to a certain amperage definitely doesn't cover it.

And it's not an electrical consideration like the 120% rule or anything about overloading anywhere in the system.

Well, inverters record lifetime power production.
Record lifetime PV MPPT harvesting, record lifetime export through CT to grid and make sure that never exceeds PV harvested.
😇
 
Thanks to all who have responded. I will need some time to digest all this. Meanwhile I am going to visit my county center on Tuesday to see about permits.

FYI, this is going to be a ground mount system with 12 solar panels of about 400W each...not that I expect to reach that 400W.
Why would PGE care what solar panels I use? That makes so sense to me. Power is power...it does not come with a particular flavor.

Regarding charging batteries and then feeding back later: I will be on NEM 3 so even if I were to do that (I'm not), they would still make money since the export rate is so low.

1714233114224.png
 
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Only to inquire.
First, visit your utility (PG&E) website. Register an account and enter your system design, using their pull-down selection of equipment.

You should get approval from PG&E before buying a permit from the city.

You can probably find out about city permit process too. It could be a simple on-line form and they don't even look at your drawing until final inspection. Or, they may require structural drawings of your roof before issuing permit.
 
So is the issue that PG&E won't allow any battery inverter unless certain columns of CEC spreadsheet are checked?
I don’t think it’s even in the CEC spreadsheet.

And to clarify a bit PCS is not the only way to get past the problem. But it’s presumably an easy way that the examiners know to look for, and they probably push onto the applicant the onus to qualify under the other options. And since it’s a California specific thing IMO it is more than 10X harder to get DIY help with it compared to 120% rule etc which is a national rule
 
Why would PGE care what solar panels I use? That make so sense to me. Power is power.
I am not sure but I believe at one point CEC or a state program using it had a solar panel warranty requirement.

And PGE does care how much raw solar capacity you have. The application database is repopulated with the electrical of all panels.

Anyway CEC listed panels make your application life easier, to the point that reputable distributors will call out when panels are not. And it’s not an onerous burden… CEC listed panels are a dime a dozen
 
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