The flip side of that coin is...You hit the nail on the Head:
US Manufacture: Union Run, Osha Restricted, Taxed into Mediocrity, Ect.
Chinese Manufacture: Lets make some batteries...
Excellent summary.The issue will be that US manufacturing will stand around trying to figure out how to be politically correct while the Chinese companies will hit the ground running hard on making these sodium batteries ... the trick will be though especially for CATL to be able to sell the Sodium's without destroying the LiFePO4 market and ride that LFP market out as far as it can go ....
LiFePO4 will never go away -- ppl still will want the density and the longevity ...
BUT the good thing is that you will see sodium batteries come in at the same price as LiFePO4 batteries and then BOTH will fall dramatically as a race to the bottom in pricing ...
CATL and EVE will still be the world leaders and making billions and the US companies will still be trying to remember which colour is on top for the Diversity flag being flown ...
You mean you made Sodium ion batteries ? Or you bought and assembled them?I have been playing around with sodium-ion battery's as well , very similar to the salt battery's I have buried in the ground inside 90mm stormwater pipes with carbon anode + Manganese cathode rolled over stainless steel mesh collector
as I am not too concerned with storage space or capacity , can always post hole drill more holes and sink more pipes into the ground think it was only ~$100 per cell to make
they do seem to have pretty good charge / discharge cycles and have not noticed a capacity change over the last few years , tho mine are under light loads 1kw 30A 48v solar charger running 100w air pumps 24/7 and 26x banks
looking over the logs it looks like the average bank does 600w /10A charge while the best one averages 800w 15A charge no idea what the difference might be but it was the 3rd bank I made , long since lost all the mix rates I used
I do over 50% discharge daily and still going , tho others have been telling me to just compress the air as storage instead ... as most of the energy does only run my aerators ~5000lpm and a compressor to keep up would just cost too , also I do still use excess solar power to run heaters and the electronics running all the automation of the aquaponic setup so I do still need electrical storage
it all comes down to what you want to use as an electrode , personally I just want something that can be setup and never replaced again in my life time like NiFe
they are the most basic battery you can make hell just a cotton insulator is all that is neededYou mean you made Sodium ion batteries ? Or you bought and assembled them?
Wow I'm elated to hear you've been successful at this, I have been searching for DIY ways to make Sodium ion batteries as required resources are much more available, please if you could share your process for making the batteries safety it would help a lot of people needing this information,(Especially newbies like myself).they are the most basic battery you can make hell just a cotton insulator is all that is needed
(I work at a textile plant)
I just used powders for making mine , sprinkled over the insulators layers sewn up and rolled into pipes and I have closed loop air being injected down the bottom to keep the salt mixture being stirred up so no solids form down the bottom entire battery banks are literally almost 60m wide (setup along my fence line with solar panels ontop of them )
think each cell was 12kg and each bank almost half a ton pretty sure they were 2m Long/deep , as learnt my lesson doing the 6m long ones , as they were impossible to get back out of the ground without breaking and rolling up the electrodes was hell
but you can easily buy foam electrode foils quite cheaply to make your own sodium is easy to get
Graphene seems to be the go to electrode these days Low grade ~$75 / kg High Grade ~$300 /kg
and apparently mine that was made from carbon powder are now over a decade old first one made in 2009 last one built 2013
I believe the newer ones had fluorine added
the issue with them is the low C-rates
the pro's is you can heat them no issues
the best thing about patents is you can see how things are made and DIY , your just not allowed to sell , nothing stopping you building
jiguang zhang's patents can make good reads , the best electrolyte so far seems to be their HC|NaNMC cells containing Fluor Sulfonyl , 2,2,2-Trifluoroethyl holding over 4.2v after hundreds of cycles
mine are a lot lower voltage per cell but I was choosing the cheapest way to make them , looks like everyone is just trying to make them compatible with lithium tech
I am still deciding if I will make flow batteries next as getting the membrane is hard to source but increasing the capacity will be easy as it just goes into storage tanks
cheap sodium batterys are great for stationary installations and the more expensive ones using micron thick electrodes will be safer to have in phones .. no more swelling and fires in your pockets they even have voltages darn close to lithium now so it could be possible to mix
I could definitely hear some more about this. How much did you cycle them?they are the most basic battery you can make hell just a cotton insulator is all that is needed
(I work at a textile plant)
I just used powders for making mine , sprinkled over the insulators layers sewn up and rolled into pipes and I have closed loop air being injected down the bottom to keep the salt mixture being stirred up so no solids form down the bottom entire battery banks are literally almost 60m wide (setup along my fence line with solar panels ontop of them )
think each cell was 12kg and each bank almost half a ton pretty sure they were 2m Long/deep , as learnt my lesson doing the 6m long ones , as they were impossible to get back out of the ground without breaking and rolling up the electrodes was hell
but you can easily buy foam electrode foils quite cheaply to make your own sodium is easy to get
Graphene seems to be the go to electrode these days Low grade ~$75 / kg High Grade ~$300 /kg
and apparently mine that was made from carbon powder are now over a decade old first one made in 2009 last one built 2013
I believe the newer ones had fluorine added
the issue with them is the low C-rates
the pro's is you can heat them no issues
the best thing about patents is you can see how things are made and DIY , your just not allowed to sell , nothing stopping you building
jiguang zhang's patents can make good reads , the best electrolyte so far seems to be their HC|NaNMC cells containing Fluor Sulfonyl , 2,2,2-Trifluoroethyl holding over 4.2v after hundreds of cycles
mine are a lot lower voltage per cell but I was choosing the cheapest way to make them , looks like everyone is just trying to make them compatible with lithium tech
I am still deciding if I will make flow batteries next as getting the membrane is hard to source but increasing the capacity will be easy as it just goes into storage tanks
cheap sodium batterys are great for stationary installations and the more expensive ones using micron thick electrodes will be safer to have in phones .. no more swelling and fires in your pockets they even have voltages darn close to lithium now so it could be possible to mix
Keep in mind this exact scenario was playing out over a decade ago when i bought my first LiFePO4. They are still clearly the best choice for residential off-grid, and i wouldn’t be at all surprised if this still isn’t the case in 2033.Will be interesting to see what battery technoogies come about, over the next ten or so years. Meanwhile I bet many of us on this forum figure, well I already have the storage I need for now, with LiFePO4 and am good for 4-6000 cycles, so I will watch and see what new tech comes along, and at what price, so I can plan for replacing the LiFePO4 over the next decade, when price and performance make it attractive and cycles start adding up on the existing systems. Like a lot of new tech, people will want to see how well new the batteries actually perform, over a period of a few years before making a change.
I wouldn’t want to but it’s not just OSHA.The flip side of that coin is...
Chinese Manufacturer: What do we do with the Chemical byproducts? Oh yeah there is a river nearby!
Chinese Manufacturer HR: Are these Chemicals safe to breath in? Yeah so long as the staff are told it is!
America has already gone down this road from the 1940s to the 1980s, we know what happens when companies are given a blank check. Go visit Beijing and come back and tell me if you would want to live there.
Even showering with the tap water is a risk and yeah that fresh 2 packs a day of Cigarette quality air will do wonders for your lungs. Even China is moving away from these kinds of hasty practices, why would we want to start to embrace them again?
I have been playing around with sodium-ion battery's as well , very similar to the salt battery's I have buried in the ground inside 90mm stormwater pipes with carbon anode + Manganese cathode rolled over stainless steel mesh collector
as I am not too concerned with storage space or capacity , can always post hole drill more holes and sink more pipes into the ground think it was only ~$100 per cell to make
they do seem to have pretty good charge / discharge cycles and have not noticed a capacity change over the last few years , tho mine are under light loads 1kw 30A 48v solar charger running 100w air pumps 24/7 and 26x banks
looking over the logs it looks like the average bank does 600w /10A charge while the best one averages 800w 15A charge no idea what the difference might be but it was the 3rd bank I made , long since lost all the mix rates I used
I do over 50% discharge daily and still going , tho others have been telling me to just compress the air as storage instead ... as most of the energy does only run my aerators ~5000lpm and a compressor to keep up would just cost too , also I do still use excess solar power to run heaters and the electronics running all the automation of the aquaponic setup so I do still need electrical storage
it all comes down to what you want to use as an electrode , personally I just want something that can be setup and never replaced again in my life time like NiFe
Could you run out and get me a locally made Tv? Or microwave? How about a new motherboard and some RAM for my computer?Consumers don't 'have to' buy the cheapest product, they can purchase a locally made one even if it costs more, or not, but it is a choice
Mike had his projects … Phill had his .. Together was a Genesis of Great thoughts.