Solar has been hijacked/co opted. A wakeup?

[billvon]

Saying that government printing is due to someone trying to retire, or build wealth for future generations. It's circular once the printing starts. You need more to retire, so you try to save more, then gov. prints more. Rinse and repeat.

Inflation hurts the lowest end most, since people without a lot of wealth are often asset poor. I would say the problem is the printing of endless dollars, and the symptom is that people try to save more to have a chance at a decent life.

That's one of the many problems, yes. But people like the result (economy that is growing faster due to availability of money/debt.)

Also we are now in a situation where we could not possibly pay off all our debt as a country, and thus we rely on inflation to make it easier to pay off over time.

 

[billvon]

There’s more to it than that. I believe that you missed the point that the mere existence of cash is debt- it’s a “note.”

Initially money was literally gold or silver; coins that contained X ounces of gold were used to trade. This had a lot of side effects, like a gold discovery would drive down the value of your money, and it was very difficult to get loans (since you needed to physically get your hands on the gold to use it.) And of course it was easy to steal. The term for this is "commodity money" where you are trading one thing of value for another. At that point it was not connected to debt.

Carrying around all that gold was annoying, so the "notes" you mention were introduced. Each note represented a certain amount of gold that could be redeemed on a one-to-one basis. That note literally represented a certain weight of gold.

Governments quickly realized that they could get the economy extra money by just printing more notes, and as long as there was no "run on the bank" (i.e. everyone trying to redeem their notes at once) everything would still work fine. They overdid it of course, and in 1971 the US announced that notes (dollars) were no longer redeemable for gold or silver.

At that point our money became fiat money; money that had value only because the government said it did. And at that point all new money creation came not from mining gold but from creation of new debt.

Fact is there is more ‘money’ on balance sheets than exists from printing it.

Agreed, although the term "printing money" tends to conjure the idea that the government just prints money to pay its debts. It doesn't do that (fortunately) since that would collapse the financial system. It does create new debt (through sale of treasury bonds and the like) and that's where much of the government's money comes from. The remainder, of course, comes from taxes.

 

[Ampster]

I don't do it to save money, it doesn't

It does require an investment so in that sense it does cost money to invest in equipment which will save me money in the long term. I am on a fixed income and that investment does give me a hedge against inflation. It is also a rewarding hobby.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

conjure the idea that the government just prints money to pay its debts. It doesn't do that (fortunately) since that would collapse the financial system.

The first sentence is figuratively true.
Yet in essence that is exactly what the government does - in structural terms- with a corresponding inflationary rubber band cause-and-effect. That is how ‘they’ steal from the taxpayers- the effect.

Economics 101 (1983) at NHTI first taught me that. It brought Reagan’s and Ross Perot’s and Adam Smith’s perspectives into the light for me. 1980-2001 were good years for Americans on average, but since then “we” have become increasingly vulnerable primarily due to unwise economic and diplomacy policies.

In regards to solar being “hijacked,” I can fully understand why someone might entertain that thought based on my own ‘watching’ of the way things developed and progressed in the 1970-2001 American political responses to everything going on in America and the world that in many ways enabled the circumstances that brought us to here- where “going solar” is often thought of as the embodiment of the cliche, “virtue signaling,’ these days and is often marketed with nods to that historical tradition. And now the bulk of solar is primarily integrated by end-user consumers using the very same kinds of monetary tools and supply-chain economics which were mostly loathed by those advocating solar-anything in the 1970’s.

So I see how the thread title spawned. Nevertheless, either creating public policy purely based on altruistic foundations or purely economic reasons lies waste to wise, deliberate discourse leaving ‘us’ with a market response devoid of moral balance. And then the public starts acting sectarianly - which is divisive- so we wind up with threads like this trying to sort out what on the surface makes no sense in some way or another depending on the ‘camp’ one is predisposed to being a part of.

 

[RV8R]

From my reading, the early days of solar were adventurous 'stick it to the man' types.
Offgrid/ back to the land...
Now, it's more of "I can save $ .01 by tieing into grid, get some subsidies/grants from government.
Meaning, someone else's money. Is this pretty much in line with all the anti establishment Woodstockers getting to power, and becoming the establishment?
I'm almost 60, and new (5 years) to solar.
I'm pretty much anti everything government (cuz I read history), going for some level of disconnect/self sufficiency.
Isn't that the point of solar??
Save a penny, to commit to the government teat seems ingenious to the founders of 'the cause.'

My Countryman ,,, Thank You for this Thread

‘If You Are Not a Liberal When You Are Young, You Have No Heart, and If You Are Not a Conservative When Old, You Have No Brain

Probably not Churchill ,,, FWIW;

https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(16)30193-0/pdf

This has been a very thought provoking thread ,,, “Rabbit Hole of Entertainment”.


For me it shows some very similar mindsets & some vastly different ones ,,, along with possibly Geo / Demo Graphics ,,, Very interesting to see the thread expand into ,,, Like Wow


Regardless to my current beliefs of our World ,,, My reasons to Solar;

Off Grid Cabin basically & Economics

My Primary Residence in Victoria BC ,,, Solar Does Not Pencil ,,, I have looked at it, but at this point in time it is a “currently” economic foolish endeavor. Maybe someday.



A Book Recommendation for you @robstrom

Sapiens

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www.audible.ca

 

[12VoltInstalls]

‘If You Are Not a Liberal When You Are Young, You Have No Heart, and If You Are Not a Conservative When Old, You Have No Brain

There are smart people when they’re young… and most have a heart.
Button-holing only serves the purpose of the speaker regardless of his or her appropriateness or moral veracity.

Thinking for oneself is as important as abandoning dogma to the point that clarity is inescapable.

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

There are smart people when they’re young… and most have a heart.
Button-holing only serves the purpose of the speaker regardless of his or her appropriateness or moral veracity.

Thinking for oneself is as important as abandoning dogma to the point that clarity is inescapable.

yes such as those who understand right off the bat that most social welfare systems are overburdened with abusers who need to be taken off the rolls and made to fend for them selves. so at what point does one go from young and "Liberal When You Are Young, You Have No Heart, and If You Are Not a Conservative When Old, You Have No Brain"

for some of us that was very early on as we did not qualify for any help and had to work from a young age.... must be that white privilege stuff i hear about all the time.

 

[Oldphile]

A lot of the get government out of my life I don't get, but I do get the sentiment of the original post. In 1967 I built my first stereo, Heathkit amplifier and speaker boxes that I built for speakers from a HiFi store that I had no idea if they were good. My system was way above and beyond what 99.9% of others had in their home. Now, anyone can buy a HiFi system. And this forum is full of people like me that just pay rather than build. Sorry, I'm one of those.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

A lot of the get government out of my life I don't get

I’m not being argumentative or mean but I do have a curiosity.

What region did you grow up in? And city, or country?

By age 11 or 12 I was going to the library after school and read The Wealth Of Nations, the history of the automobile, most of the collected writings of Thomas Jefferson, Daniel Webster, Samuel Clemons, many others. Mostly around the subjects of early american history, post civil war, and economics. I didn’t know I was a ‘conservative’ or ‘liberal’ or ‘left’ or ‘socialist’ back then as I wasn’t reading contemporary stuff, and I hate calling myself ‘conservative’ today because of stereotyping and idiomatic opinions that generally are not accurate assessements.

So I was fairly well formed in my societal thinking and had a firm cultural grounding at an early age that was not entirely reflective of my parents.

So I often get insatiably curious to learn how others think when I hear or meet someone that does not have a pronounced proclivity for citizenry coupled with an aversion for big government because it seems such an effortless natural state to coalesce into- to me.
—-
In context with this thread, I was interested in solar power and alternative energy in spite of not being of the hippie or tree-hugger stereotype. I grew up in NH and got heavily exposed to anti-nuke sentiments contemporary with the planning and implementation of Seabrook Nuclear Power Station as well as the Three Mile Island incident.
I was neither anti-nuclear power, nor was I indisposed to passive solar and solar electricity- although photovoltaic didn’t seem efficacious at that time. We heated with wood.

Especially out of the 1970’s, however, I got plenty of exposure to the interesting characters that lived atypical lifestyles and ate granola before granola was granola. While I never have bought into the various lifestyle elements- they didn’t make any sense- I certainly wasn’t opposed to adopting solar and sustainable lifestyle elements as ambitiously as I assimilated computers, constitutional loyalty with a vehement perspective on individual rights, and an entrepreneurial spirit. Guerrilla Solar fit right in!

That is why I have my complex reasoning regarding Solar not having been subverted or betrayed as banally as the thread title suggests. Those that were The Guerrilla Solar People were making a point.

That it made sense and morphed mainstream is sortofa indicator that “they” succeeded in their mission.

I sometimes ponder whether it’s gone too far; letting it develop and expand and revolutionize naturally is fine, while forcing it and coercing - to me, in my opinion - is not of long-term benefit and perhaps not beneficial short term. Because I, too, think it’s best if the government is out of our lives.

 

[aenyc]

I view Solar as just a technology, which has its niche uses for those who can afford it.
For me it is all about redundancy in case of blackouts and brownouts, or inevitable rationing that they will absolutely try to implement in the states (Europe is already full steam ahead in this)

 

[Hedges]

"Rationing", certainly I believe in Triage regarding power (and communications, therefore I don't support "Net Neutrality".)
If demand exceeds supply, like on a hot day when everyone is running A/C, we have two choices:
1) Shut off everybody
2) Shut of some loads.

So I favor optional remote control of thermostats, together with mandatory control of feed to house.
During a power shortage, we set back thermostats of the volunteers, and leave power to their houses on.
Disconnect all power from those who declined to have remote thermostats installed.

Of course, individuals can also have their own PV panels and batteries, and can power any loads they want from them.

 

[Oldphile]

I’m not being argumentative or mean but I do have a curiosity.

What region did you grow up in? And city, or country?

I grew up in small town (population 20,000) Ontario Canada. I moved to the US when I was 46 to preserve my job. I've lived in ME, FL and now NH.

 

[RV8R]

I’m not being argumentative or mean but I do have a curiosity.

Samuel Clemons,

Because I, too, think it’s best if the government is out of our lives.

When I was young it isn’t about IQ, but of experience.

As I have lived a life & seen the Hypocrisy of Government ,,, I want all the Good things that Government brings & none of the Evil ,,, but at what cost. Freedom, or the idea of being free is very important to me & a bigger concern as the years go by.

“Samuel’s” art has always resonated with me ,,, some of it I feel I understand better as I have aged.

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

I grew up in small town (population 20,000) Ontario Canada. I moved to the US when I was 46 to preserve my job. I've lived in ME, FL and now NH.

so stop whining about all of the good things we gave you and start working with us. put up or shut up!

 

[Oldphile]

so stop whining about all of the good things we gave you and start working with us. put up or shut up!

What did I say that sounds like whining?

 

[aenyc]

"Rationing", certainly I believe in Triage regarding power (and communications, therefore I don't support "Net Neutrality".)
If demand exceeds supply, like on a hot day when everyone is running A/C, we have two choices:
1) Shut off everybody
2) Shut of some loads.

So I favor optional remote control of thermostats, together with mandatory control of feed to house.
During a power shortage, we set back thermostats of the volunteers, and leave power to their houses on.
Disconnect all power from those who declined to have remote thermostats installed.

Of course, individuals can also have their own PV panels and batteries, and can power any loads they want from them.

The only problem is rationing will be done to control you. The next phase will be rationing you if you refuse your next vaxxine booster, or for any other arbitrary reason - cLIEmate change, supporting the next "Trump", refusing to eat "ze bugs", etc

Why do you think they are trying to replace all the analog meters with smart meters that are "always connected to the internet" and have remote both rationing and remote disconnect features? Dont believe me - read the smart meter manual. Its all baked in the cake, but few are aware.

 

[aenyc]

Take a look at that PDF (For a smart meter made in 2019, they are much more advance now) in great detail, particularly this little gem:


Switches J2, Q2, R2 and T2 and remote disconnect itself (Read the whole manual). Creepy stuff!

It took me a lot of fighting with my powercompany to keep my analog meter with solar. (Which spins backwards when I generate)

 

[Hedges]

Yes, there is that problem of a disconnect being used for evil.
But how do you feel about individual usage adding up to bringing the grid down, when simply having all A/C set for a higher temperature (except for select people having medical issues) could keep power on for everyone?

Three decades ago, a fire shut down one power line near the Canadian border. Over the next three days, the grid slowly collapsed from Canada all the way into Mexico, because loads exceeding the power which could be delivered.

How could we, or should we, address such issues?

 

[aenyc]

Yes, there is that problem of a disconnect being used for evil.
But how do you feel about individual usage adding up to bringing the grid down, when simply having all A/C set for a higher temperature (except for select people having medical issues) could keep power on for everyone?

Three decades ago, a fire shut down one power line near the Canadian border. Over the next three days, the grid slowly collapsed from Canada all the way into Mexico, because loads exceeding the power which could be delivered.

How could we, or should we, address such issues?

By letting free markets sort this out. I guarantee you there will be no problems.
The only reason the issue even exists is government and NGO mismanagement of the energy policy (for example California).
These are ALL GOVERNMENT MADE problems (mandated by globalist "elites" that run the corporations and NGOs)
Start with getting rid of the "Carbon bad" scam and stopping mandating unsustainable things like EV's for everyone and replacing gas heating appliances with electric.

 

[SunDave]

Three decades ago, a fire shut down one power line near the Canadian border. Over the next three days, the grid slowly collapsed from Canada all the way into Mexico, because loads exceeding the power which could be delivered.

How could we, or should we, address such issues?

IMO, we can address them by not tying everything together into one vulnerable basket.

There always advantages and disadvantages to any system. The people that I see doing the most damage are focused on the advantages "for the good of the people" and ignore the disadvantages. It is possible they are all well meaning, all while steering society down the wrong path.

Reminds me of the path to hell paved with good intentions saying.

In my opinion, the most robust power system we could possibly have is a bunch of regional providers unaffected by the problems of neighboring providers. Stops your scenario of rolling outages, helps with cyber attack footing, lets regions succeed or perform poorly based on their choices, which become apparent through pricing.