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Timed pump shutoff to prevent continuous running of well pump?

jimf909

jimf909

Electricity curious
Joined
Mar 12, 2023
Messages
175
Location
48N, 117W
Hello,

I have a 120VAC well pump triggered to start and stop by a pressure switch at the Well-X-Trol storage tanks. I want to add an auto shutoff of some kind that will stop the well pump if there's a continuous draw such as someone leaving a frost-free hydrant on or a line breaking so the well pump doesn't run continuously.

I'm thinking that a timer that shuts off the pump after, say, 30 minutes of continuous use. To restart would require manual intervention after the leak is remedied.

I'm also open to other pump shutoff methods. I've searched several times for quite awhile and I must not be using the correct terms.

What is available to serve this function?

Thanks.
 
jimf909 said:
Hello,

I have a 120VAC well pump triggered to start and stop by a pressure switch at the Well-X-Trol storage tanks. I want to add an auto shutoff of some kind that will stop the well pump if there's a continuous draw such as someone leaving a frost-free hydrant on or a line breaking so the well pump doesn't run continuously.

I'm thinking that a timer that shuts off the pump after, say, 30 minutes of continuous use. To restart would require manual intervention after the leak is remedied.

I'm also open to other pump shutoff methods. I've searched several times for quite awhile and I must not be using the correct terms.

What is available to serve this function?

Thanks.
Click to expand...
Perhaps this?


Not really my area.
 
No answers for you, but here are a few thoughts.

Assuming this is a normal house well application, the Well-x-trol pressure tank acts as a buffer for the house water pressure.
The mechanical pressure switch switches on when at low pressure (e.g. 30 psi), and off at high-pressure (e.g. 60 psi).

Even if you were running the tub full on continuously, the pressure would still cycle from 30 to 60 psi and back repeatedly.
The well pump itself never runs continuously, because normally the well provides more water (e.g. 20 gallons/minute), than you can reasonably consume.

So you can’t really detect it running continuously because it won’t do that. It will run intermittently repeatedly.
Unless your well is really underpowered.
 
Last edited:
ricardocello said:
No answers for you, but here are a few thoughts.

Assuming this is a normal house well application, the Well-x-trol pressure tank acts as a buffer for the house water pressure.
The mechanical pressure switch switches on when at low pressure (e.g. 30 psi), and off at high-pressure (e.g. 60 psi).

Even if you were running the tub full on continuously, the pressure would still cycle from 30 to 60 psi and back repeatedly.
The well pump itself never runs continuously, because normally the well provides more water (e.g. 20 gallons/minute), than you can reasonably consume.

So you can’t really detect it running continuously because it won’t do that. It will run intermittently repeatedly.
Unless your well is really underpowered.
Click to expand...
You've described the operation accurately. There are two Well-x-trol pressure tanks in this system.

I don't know that running a faucet will cause the pump to run continuously but I know that a busted pipe will drain the tanks and run the pump continuously (ugh). My guess is that leaving a frost-free hydrant on will also do that (someone is filling a trough and walks away).

Regardless if the pump is cycling or running continuously I want to shut the pump off if there's an uncontrolled leak or valve left open in the system. That could be detected with the pump running for 30 minutes or maybe if it cycles twice in an hour.

As a bit more background, this well serves an house, an old cabin and several hydrants so the opportunity to fail is there (pipes froze in the cabin once, a valve was left open once).
 
Last edited:
The well pump switch will need to be rewired for starters.
Slightly off topic, but related story:

Because my well pressure tank is in a crawl space, the pressure switch contacts corrode every few years.
I chose to rewire, but you may need to do something similar.

I brought the well circuit and well power lines (240V in my case) to a convenient 8x8” junction box.
I brought the pressure switch contacts back using low-voltage cabling to the same junction box.
I installed a beefy HVAC-style 240V contactor in the box to actually turn the well pump off and on.
Installed a 24VAC HVAC-style transformer to drive the contactor coil through the pressure switch at low voltage.

I did this to reduce the spark on the pressure switch contacts, so they are switching low-voltage low-current.
4 years, so far, so good.

——
Based on all that, if I were trying to do what you’ve asked for, I would tackle it this way:

Insert a 5V coil relay in the 24VAC switch path normally closed so the well pump can be disabled by activating the relay.
You cannot start the pump this way, you can only disable it because it is a “wired-AND” logic.

There are multiple ways to detect pump running.
A CT on the well pump circuit feeding a current sense dongle on a Rasp Pi would be the most flexible DIY custom solution.
I’d write software for the RaspPi to monitor the current, which is limited only by your code writing creativity.
Like maybe compute a rolling average of pump on time, if exceeds a threshold, stop the pump, and send an email, etc.

I assume you want a more off-the-shelf solution, and maybe someone on the forum knows better.
 
System specs: 1/2 hp two-wire 10 gpm well pump, well is 25' deep, pump is at 18', the house and Well-x-trol tanks are 40' above the pump. The pump cycles 2 - 4x a day on average and it takes the pump about 13 minutes to fill the two tanks. The system has been operational since 2006 and the pump was replaced in 2018.
 
ricardocello said:
Based on all that, if I were trying to do what you’ve asked for, I would tackle it this way:

Insert a 5V coil relay in the 24VAC switch path normally closed so the well pump can be disabled by activating the relay.
You cannot start the pump this way, you can only disable it because it is a “wired-AND” logic.

There are multiple ways to detect pump running.
A CT on the well pump circuit feeding a current sense dongle on a Rasp Pi would be the most flexible DIY custom solution.
I’d write software for the RaspPi to monitor the current, which is limited only by your code writing creativity.
Like maybe compute a rolling average of pump on time, if exceeds a threshold, stop the pump, and send an email, etc.

I assume you want a more off-the-shelf solution, and maybe someone on the forum knows better.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the example of a solution. I have no functional knowledge of the Rasp Pi but it's interesting to me and something that I could get my arms around. I imagine that it could also log pump run time for general water consumption and also to flag increases that might indicate a slow leak or unusual consumption rates. Slow leaks can be tested for easily just by shutting everything off and monitoring pressure but it's always fun to add new methods.

The well pump is a notable weak link in this system because a water leak can pretty easily take the off-grid system down: the property is unoccupied while folks are on vacation; the plumbing springs a leak or "a neighbor" uses the hose bib and doesn't turn it off; the pump runs excessively, runs the batteries down leading to a low voltage shut down; food spoils, internet connectivity to the house is lost, etc.

For now, I open the circuit breaker to the well pump when I leave but that doesn't work when friends are stopping by to water plants.
 
The forum software just pushed this thread to me as another possible solution. Thanks, forum software.

diysolarforum.com

Water pump run-time limiter

I had an unusual problem to solve recently - I have a cabin that's completely off grid and not connected to any public water supply, running on stored tank water only. This is in a fairly arid area, so water is precious and can't be wasted. One risk that's been sitting in the back of my mind is...
diysolarforum.com diysolarforum.com
octal_ip said:
I had an unusual problem to solve recently - I have a cabin that's completely off grid and not connected to any public water supply, running on stored tank water only. This is in a fairly arid area, so water is precious and can't be wasted.

One risk that's been sitting in the back of my mind is the chance that some part of the plumbing in the cabin or surrounding garden springs a leak, in which case the water pressure pump would turn on and happily pump the tank dry, potentially wasting thousands of liters of water and eventually damaging the pump.

I couldn't find any cheap or simple device that could limit how long the pump is allowed to continuously run for at any one time. So I wrote some custom firmware for a Sonoff POW Origin (POWR316). It constantly monitors the amount of power used by the pump, and shuts it off after 15 minutes of continuous use. The timer/cut-off is easily reset using the button on the front of the device.

The POWR316 is useful for a lot more than this, of course, however for a very small cost it's completely removed the possibility of a small disaster.

I've uploaded the code to GitHub if anyone else would find this useful:
github.com

GitHub - octal-ip/POWR316_Pump_Limiter: A modification to the SonOff POWR316 to limit the amount of time a load can run for

A modification to the SonOff POWR316 to limit the amount of time a load can run for - octal-ip/POWR316_Pump_Limiter
github.com github.com
Click to expand...
 
jimf909 said:
The forum software just pushed this thread to me as another possible solution. Thanks, forum software.

diysolarforum.com

Water pump run-time limiter

I had an unusual problem to solve recently - I have a cabin that's completely off grid and not connected to any public water supply, running on stored tank water only. This is in a fairly arid area, so water is precious and can't be wasted. One risk that's been sitting in the back of my mind is...
diysolarforum.com diysolarforum.com
Click to expand...
Would a pressure switch with a low pressure cut off work?

Telemecanique sensors FSG2J24M4CP 40-60 PSI Pumptrol Water Pressure Switch with Low Pressure Cut-Off https://a.co/d/0YCV3Wi

If something is running continuously and your tank so in build pressure it will shut off power to the pump.
 
Last edited:
This crossed my mind while noodling this and is a simple solution. In my case, it would need to open the switch when pressure dropped below 5 - 10 psi. The system normally operates between 30 - 50 psi but if a pipe breaks the pressure tanks will empty and the pump will run continuously but the system pressure will drop to close to zero (I saw that once when I left a plug out of the system).

This would catch a big leak but it wouldn't catch a slower leak that the well pump can keep up with by cycling on and off many times a day.

It's a good start and addresses the major problem. Thanks.
 
jimf909 said:
This crossed my mind while noodling this and is a simple solution. In my case, it would need to open the switch when pressure dropped below 5 - 10 psi. The system normally operates between 30 - 50 psi but if a pipe breaks the pressure tanks will empty and the pump will run continuously but the system pressure will drop to close to zero (I saw that once when I left a plug out of the system).

This would catch a big leak but it wouldn't catch a slower leak that the well pump can keep up with by cycling on and off many times a day.

It's a good start and addresses the major problem. Thanks.
Click to expand...

It'll catch the big leaks and those are the worst.

For small leaks I wonder if you could attach a meter with a dry contact that could be used to send an alert? I have a meter on my well and I briefly looked into being able to access the data remotely but I gave up

I also have my well pump monitored by iotawatt and I check the data every so often to make sure the pump is not running too often due to a failed pressure tank. You could set up an alert based on that
 
Have not looked into actual components but it seems to me a timer powered off the pressure switch that operates the pump power contactor could be setup. If the pressure switch remains in the on position for too long the timer times out and turns off the power going to the pump.

Edit: I did a search for 30 minute time delay relays and this might be an option.
 
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Also look at the Yolink / Yosmart universe of smart home devices. I had a similar problem, I have a Grundfos SQE well pump and controller I wired a leak sensor to, which is tied to a smart relay controlling a dumb power relay to kill power to the pump. My wife made fun of the setup until the well tank sprung a leak while were away and shut the system down. I have an open loop water to air Geothermal system so i cant "turn the water off" while we're gone.

I notice the smart relay has a TIMER function, you'd just need to trigger it when the pump starts (? not sure of deets on that...)

Screenshot_20240427_145328_YoLink.jpgScreenshot_20240427_145303_YoLink.jpg
 
1201 said:
Would a pressure switch with a low pressure cut off work?

Telemecanique sensors FSG2J24M4CP 40-60 PSI Pumptrol Water Pressure Switch with Low Pressure Cut-Off https://a.co/d/0YCV3Wi

If something is running continuously and your tank so in build pressure it will shut off power to the pump.
Click to expand...
This is the real solution, use them on all my pumps.
 
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