LTO battery fire

[Skypower]

Thats a good question.

But, I've kind of moved on the the hardiboard (cement board) solution. Cheap and rigid.

And proven

 

[Brucey]

I don't know enough about fire extinguishers, but I would assume that any extinguisher would be acceptable because you are just trying to prevent the fire from spreading. Putting out a lithium fire is wasted effort. If this is the case, the $40 extinguisher I got online that is hanging on the wall next to my batteries should be perfectly acceptable

Can anyone tell me if this is wrong thinking?

NCM ternary cells an extinguisher would be useless maybe a big fire truck but I think for LFP it will get the job done if there's any visible flames at all

 

[Kenny_]

Regardless of the chemistry used it is a good reminder to review the basics. Good for us all:

1. Ensure proper connections, recheck as needed.
2. Include adequate fuses and breakers
3. Make sure wire size and capacities are above the required or expected loads
4. Consider a technical review by other members prior to going live with the installation. It is amazing the number of "small" things others saw with my build that can really add up (in a bad way)

Periodically look over your system with a critical eye. Especially if in a mobile application.

If your design is experimental, perhaps considering a location outside the home? Each person needs to make their own choice on this. Just a thought.

I have driven a car for many many years. Even with this vast experience it still pays to follow certain safety procedures when getting behind the wheel. Even the most experienced person takes a chance if they skip basic safety considerations.

Yes! This! Don't become complacent! Beginner's Mind!

 

[KITROBASKIN]

Fire blanket and a prayerful spirit. Charge ebike outside, and flashlight lithium batteries while awake.

 

[Skypower]

NCM ternary cells an extinguisher would be useless maybe a big fire truck but I think for LFP it will get the job done if there's any visible flames at all

It’s the “other than” LFP or LTO that should freak out the fire departments. Unfortunately, they hear battery and lump all types together. There have been several accidents involving the safer chemistry and most were localized damage, not a total structure. I’m thinking that greatly reducing a LFP fire’s intensity would be to attack the affected area with Co2 and disconnect the DC breaker (remove load) as soon as it’s safe to do so.

 

[Skypower]

Fire blanket and a prayerful spirit. Charge ebike outside, and flashlight lithium batteries while awake.

True
Who here hasn’t been fearful, taken something of questionable electrical integrity and taken it outside or a safe area before energizing or not being able to supervise it.
I no longer use a tool charger in an area where if it can go up, that it can’t ignite anything around it. Dewalt charger went up(not the battery). I just happened to go past it.

 

[Sanwizard]

I bought Ansul Clean Guard. Had considered Halotron, but effective concentration and LC50 (concentration lethal to 50% of rats tested) changed my mind.
Note that any of these extinguishing agents with fluorine can make nasty chemicals depending on the temperatures they experience, so exit and ventilate the room.

Ansul CleanGuard+ FK-5-1-12 Clean Agent Fire Extinguishers

Ansul CleanGuard® extinguishers are designed for the protection of commercial and industrial facilities traditionally protected by Halon 1211 such as computer centers, data/document storage areas, communications facilities, control rooms, electronics manufacturing, museums, art galleries...

www.safetyemporium.com

This is because I have expensive electronic test equipment as well.
If you've just got a low cost inverter (some priced less than these extinguishers!) other options make more sense.



Depends on what else is in the vicinity.

I sat on a failure analysis team after a contractor grabbed a dry chemical extinguisher ran ran into a computer room to put out an electrical fire. $Millions of of equipment destroyed. Simply turning off power was all that was required to stop FR4 PC board from burning, due to about 1kW of red hot glowing metal (shield shorted across 5V 200A power supply.) The purpose of the analysis was to determine who's material was responsible for starting the fire. (combination of design flaw and defect.)

Damn! That must have sucked for the contractor!

I spent half my life in data centers. Most operator "Computer Rooms" were either inside or adjacent to the actual data center server/storage/network farm. There was always a raised floor, and a Halon system with a shutoff button at the entrance. The Halon would go off automatically if not stopped manually within 60 seconds.

If you were caught inside when it went off, you would suffocate along with the fire.

That setup is damn expensive, but necessary for multi-million dollar data centers.

Weird that someone would locate dry chem extinguisher nearby for a contractor to grab. The DC manager was probably fired along with that contractor after that mess. It almost happened to me once. I was repairing a very large disk drive, troubleshooting the power input.

I had a long screwdriver in my back pocket. I spun around to grab another tool from my kit, and that screwdriver somehow perfectly touched the connections across a large capacitor in the drive. Bang! Smoke came out and set off the halon system alarm. I had 60 seconds to get to the door to shut it down (there was no fire, just a blown cap).

I made it in time, but will never forget that day. Now, I ALWAYS take off any watches, chains, rings, and never keep tools in a pocket when working around large LiFePo4 batteries. All my tools are taped or made non conductive on the handles when working on busbars.

The ironic thing is I do have a dry chemical extinguisher next to my batteries, as I cannot currently afford the CO2 extinguishers at this time. I will upgrade if Bitcoin takes off! ?

 

[Zwy]

I like Batrium.

I was going to use it exclusively but then found out after buying a ton of K9s that they don’t have individual battery termination if there is a problem.

It will only run one shunt breaker and I have too many batteries for that.

If you have a very large bank, just run 2 CORE's and 2 shunt trip breakers. Only lose one half the bank. Takes the same number of K9's, just an additional CORE and shunt trip. I almost set up my bank that way but decided I would add another CORE, K9's and shunt trip if I add to the bank.

I've been extremely pleased with my decision to run Batrium. It isn't cheap but is certainly flexible.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

If you have a very large bank, just run 2 CORE's and 2 shunt trip breakers. Only lose one half the bank. Takes the same number of K9's, just an additional CORE and shunt trip. I almost set up my bank that way but decided I would add another CORE, K9's and shunt trip if I add to the bank.

I've been extremely pleased with my decision to run Batrium. It isn't cheap but is certainly flexible.

That’s a good point.
Didn’t consider that.

I guess you could run one core per K9 if you really wanted to.
Be kind of expensive though.
How would that show up on your toolkit?
Have to switch between each core?

Hmm. Now you got me thinking.

Problem is now I have more batteries than K9s!!

 

[SeaGal]

I guess you could run one core per K9 if you really wanted to.

Well, yesterday I learnt on here what 'albedo' meant...

Now I'd like to know what a K9 is.... apart from ?

 

[Partimewages]

I need a drawing!?

 

[Nobodybusiness]

Damn! That must have sucked for the contractor!

I spent half my life in data centers. Most operator "Computer Rooms" were either inside or adjacent to the actual data center server/storage/network farm. There was always a raised floor, and a Halon system with a shutoff button at the entrance. The Halon would go off automatically if not stopped manually within 60 seconds.

If you were caught inside when it went off, you would suffocate along with the fire.

That setup is damn expensive, but necessary for multi-million dollar data centers.

Weird that someone would locate dry chem extinguisher nearby for a contractor to grab. The DC manager was probably fired along with that contractor after that mess. It almost happened to me once. I was repairing a very large disk drive, troubleshooting the power input.

I had a long screwdriver in my back pocket. I spun around to grab another tool from my kit, and that screwdriver somehow perfectly touched the connections across a large capacitor in the drive. Bang! Smoke came out and set off the halon system alarm. I had 60 seconds to get to the door to shut it down (there was no fire, just a blown cap).

I made it in time, but will never forget that day. Now, I ALWAYS take off any watches, chains, rings, and never keep tools in a pocket when working around large LiFePo4 batteries. All my tools are taped or made non conductive on the handles when working on busbars.

The ironic thing is I do have a dry chemical extinguisher next to my batteries, as I cannot currently afford the CO2 extinguishers at this time. I will upgrade if Bitcoin takes off! ?

We had Huge Halon canisters in our DC for years then suddenly they took them all out and put in an EPO button.

We were told if a fire occurs just head for the door and hit the EPO on your way out.

No visible means of fire suppression visible now.

Not even sure if there is any.

Of course that was a few years ago I was in there but it was probably 15 years from when they pulled the halon until I left.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

Well, yesterday I learnt on here what 'albedo' meant...

Now I'd like to know what a K9 is.... apart from ?

K9 is a component of the Batrium BMS that connects to the battery via sense leads.

CellMate K9

CellMate-K9 is our new cell monitor capable of monitoring batteries between 3s and 16s. Individual cell monitoring. Two or more CellMate-K9 can be daisy-chained to create a higher-voltage battery.

www.batrium.com

You need at least 1 core and 1 K9 to make it work plus something to run the toolkit.

Laptop or Tablet..

 

[SeaGal]

? Well, now I know, thanks

 

[Nobodybusiness]

? Well, now I know, thanks

You are welcome..

 

[Brucey]

Well, yesterday I learnt on here what 'albedo' meant...

Now I'd like to know what a K9 is.... apart from ?

This thread I found helpful:

Batrium K9/Core BMS for 16s2p Basen eve/lichen 32 cell review

Batrium is great for 16s+, 32 cell+ systems. For our large property high voltage gets you further distances with less voltage drop. 48v was my goal from day one for our ground mount system. We are fully off grid which meant we needed a lot of kwh. But how do you manage 32 cells, or even more in...

diysolarforum.com

 

[Steve_S]

Our Server rooms (National Defence) were cleared of Halon equipment in 1999.

FYI, something many are not aware of. Fireboard is "okay" but has limits. Magnesium Oxide boards (Mag-O) can handle up to 3500C and install's similar to Fireboard, this is the safest material to use around batteries or as a backer for your gear. See more info here:

Magnesium Oxide Boards | MGO Panels | Magpanel

MagPanel is one of the trusted and high quality MgO board supplier. Our MgO Boards/Panels are highly durable building materials for inside, outside floorings and walls.

www.magpanelmgo.com

 

[Sanwizard]

Our Server rooms (National Defence) were cleared of Halon equipment in 1999.

FYI, something many are not aware of. Fireboard is "okay" but has limits. Magnesium Oxide boards (Mag-O) can handle up to 3500C and install's similar to Fireboard, this is the safest material to use around batteries or as a backer for your gear. See more info here:

Magnesium Oxide Boards | MGO Panels | Magpanel

MagPanel is one of the trusted and high quality MgO board supplier. Our MgO Boards/Panels are highly durable building materials for inside, outside floorings and walls.

www.magpanelmgo.com

I have not seen these at Lowes or Home Depot. Where do you get them?

 

[OffGridInTheCity]

I don't know enough about fire extinguishers, but I would assume that any extinguisher would be acceptable because you are just trying to prevent the fire from spreading. Putting out a lithium fire is wasted effort. If this is the case, the $40 extinguisher I got online that is hanging on the wall next to my batteries should be perfectly acceptable

Can anyone tell me if this is wrong thinking?

I have 18650 NMH cells in my Powerwall and I also have a medium size fire extinguisher right alongside. The battery is bounded by cinder block walls, concrete floor, and corrugated metal over it to help block reaching higher.

After watching cascading thermal run-away for NMH my thought is as you say, to help contain/delay to give the fire department a little more time to arrive. As vids show, no way is a medium sized fire extinguisher going to 'put the fire out'. IF I have a few minutes of delay I can add a hose / stream of water to try to keep things contained a little longer.

The key thing for me is to reduce risk by keeping the Powerwall under LOW STRESS temp/environment wise, charge/discharge current wise, operating voltage range wise, physical wise (dent/punctures), and no arcing in the wiring for sure!, and closely monitored - e.g. Batrium + data logging gives me a clear picture of trends - hopefully long before things get out of hand

 

[Steve_S]

I have not seen these at Lowes or Home Depot. Where do you get them?

I buy this at my local lumber yard (BMR). Been using this stuff for years as Tile Backer and as subfloor for specialized areas (tiled of course). I am not sure where you can get it in the US but there are a few different brand names. It is widely available in UK & EU as well as Asia where it is really popular.
Last batch I bought was about 60% of the cost of fireboard, that was in 2018 though... so what it is today is a mystery.