Will blasts Chargery

To clarify my position I prefer a discrete component to do low voltage cutoff independent of and in addition to the inverter and the bms.
On the other hand, I'm cheap.
It seems to me the the BMS will probably evolve since lifepo4 batteries are much safer than their explody predecessors.
Its more about protecting your system now and less about fire safety.
Also batteries are getting bigger and less expensive so a few more milliwatts overhead can be spared for additional functionality.

This is what makes Will so great he comes up with a second video with even more complaints. I was also thinking of using chargery for my bms but was scared of the use of a relay. I worked at a equipment rental store for over 18 years and know how relays are a problem spot with systems. You do not want a safety device to be a fire hazard. I went with electrodacus for this reason, the chargery was great besides the relay that they suggest. And I like that he is even testing units in this price range on other forums all they want to talk about is batrium and those units are way more expensive than anything Will is suggesting. It even sounds like chargery is going to make improvements based on his review. Thanks Will keep it up.

Bob B said:

In general, I agree with your assessment.... but there are specific things I disagree with in Will's assessment.

For instance .... I think the display is perfectly functional and I don't want to pay more for the Chargery because it has an upgraded display. The data and settings I want to see are available and I don't have trouble reading it. On one hand, Will says that he is not a fan of data logging .... but then shows how much better the Electrodocus is because of all the fancy color graphs.

I still think the error condition when a cell is too far out of range is a GOOD feature.

I think Will spent too much time concentrating on the hot relay and not enough time showing how a SSR relay could easily be used instead.

I don't really care that it was originally designed for use with EV. We've known that all along. A passing comment would be sufficient .... Jason has already done a lot to help us use it for our purposes,

I guess I'll stop complaining .... I'm guessing we aren't going to change each others mind.

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Oh the data logging graphs had nothing to do with me liking data logging. It was to show the pixel density and colors available. If you like the screen, go for it. I like the electrodacus more. Thats my opinion. Had nothing to do with the data logging at all when I was doing that comparison.

Like I said at the end, I don't need a screen. I like autonomy. If I need to check my system every day, it is because I am a bad system designer. I prefer no screens if I can.

Cell too far out of range will still have LVD as protection feature. Yes I agree it is a great feature for Li-poly high c rate application, but not for solar. It is unnecessary.

No I mentioned the SSR as well. And I made an entire video on that a couple months ago. I figured that was implied. And you should not use SSR for capacitative load handling, like an inverter. SSR should instead be used for switching an inverter on/off. Did you see that part of the video? I think I made that point pretty clear.

Yes but they should have default values that work for LiFePO4. I think some of the defaults were off. If cell deviation cut off value is too low, you will have funky capacity readings. Also mine came with SOC cut off at 20%. Maybe those settings work for some, but the default settings should work for more people.

Bob B said:

One more thing while this is on my mind ..... regarding the calibration procedure ..... Yes, it is somewhat difficult and not intuitive, but the result is a "real" calibration, not just a theoretical calibration that could be in error because of something being out of tolerance or on the edge of tolerance.

I had to go thru a charge and discharge current calibration on my battery with the Bluetooth BMS using the Xiaoxiang application. Prior to doing that it was not accurately tracking %charge and AH usage.

Ok .. I think I'm done now, but I won't guarantee it.

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Would you agree that a separate menu option showing all 3 variable inputs for current calibration, would be a better format? The current input method is lazy software engineering. It would not take much work to show all three variables in a separate menu.

Yes please calibrate all BMS, including xiaoxiang.

Having a resistance value input for shunt is still ideal. You can use your own meter, your own shunt, and it will work flawlessly. The calibration setup on the chargery does not have this option. It is not hard to add this option for manual calibration.

It would take a day of coding to have both methods of calibration. It really is not hard to add.

eric108 said:

This is what makes Will so great he comes up with a second video with even more complaints. I was also thinking of using chargery for my bms but was scared of the use of a relay. I worked at a equipment rental store for over 18 years and know how relays are a problem spot with systems. You do not want a safety device to be a fire hazard. I went with electrodacus for this reason, the chargery was great besides the relay that they suggest. And I like that he is even testing units in this price range on other forums all they want to talk about is batrium and those units are way more expensive than anything Will is suggesting. It even sounds like chargery is going to make improvements based on his review. Thanks Will keep it up.

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Thank you Eric :D

Hmmm, just watched video two.
Yes, of course these were made for small EV's like golf carts, e-bikes and such, originally but can be used for more. No secret, it's all over the Chargery Website.

I came across them because I was considering VOLT Batteries and the person I was talking with suggested Chargery. I compared with TinyBMS and others at the time but not Orion as that's Big $$$.

The GUI is simple, sure, could it be prettier, likely is it that important ? All the essential info is there but a better presentation would not hurt. A BlueTooth Interface is worked on too, how that will evolve is unknown.

This BMS handles LiPo/Li-Ion/LiFe/LiTO so yes, there will be settings there that apply to some and not to others. Maybe the default setting depending on chemistry choice could be improved. The CELL Differential thing for example. BUT THERE'S A CATCH ! What if a LFP Cell goes deep discharge while the others keep going, could it not effectively murder the cell ? What if it drops to 2.0V or 1.75V before the rest cutoff ?? don't think that would be very good for the cell or pack.

The "basic" relays offered are just that. @Craig & I have worked with a couple of companies to get new SSR's made up to handle the kind of stuff we are doing. Case in point these SSR's were made up from suggestion by Craig & Myself and these have proper sized lugs for cables. BTW: Chargery is also working on 300A & 600A SSRs in house. Additionally I reached out to a another manufacturer and am waiting on Energy Saver Relays to test them as well and these use much less power and are UL certified, The Dongya DH200H and of course there are other ways to accomplish the use of the relay switching without consuming a bunch of power.

SSR's that were inspired by Craig & I. Huge Lugs & Pads ...

Big Lug 500A SSR : https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...m=a2747.manage.0.0.3d1571d2AmThhr&bypass=true

Big Lug 1000A SSR : https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...317242imd258&fullFirstScreen=true&bypass=true

* NOTE, They are presently in transit on the lazy path therefore I haven't tested them yet, I don't think Craig got his yet either.

Steve_S said:

Hmmm, just watched video two.
Yes, of course these were made for small EV's like golf carts, e-bikes and such, originally but can be used for more. No secret, it's all over the Chargery Website.

I came across them because I was considering VOLT Batteries and the person I was talking with suggested Chargery. I compared with TinyBMS and others at the time but not Orion as that's Big $$$.

The GUI is simple, sure, could it be prettier, likely is it that important ? All the essential info is there but a better presentation would not hurt. A BlueTooth Interface is worked on too, how that will evolve is unknown.

This BMS handles LiPo/Li-Ion/LiFe/LiTO so yes, there will be settings there that apply to some and not to others. Maybe the default setting depending on chemistry choice could be improved. The CELL Differential thing for example. BUT THERE'S A CATCH ! What if a LFP Cell goes deep discharge while the others keep going, could it not effectively murder the cell ? What if it drops to 2.0V or 1.75V before the rest cutoff ?? don't think that would be very good for the cell or pack.

The "basic" relays offered are just that. @Craig & I have worked with a couple of companies to get new SSR's made up to handle the kind of stuff we are doing. Case in point these SSR's were made up from suggestion by Craig & Myself and these have proper sized lugs for cables. BTW: Chargery is also working on 300A & 600A SSRs in house. Additionally I reached out to a another manufacturer and am waiting on Energy Saver Relays to test them as well and these use much less power and are UL certified, The Dongya DH200H and of course there are other ways to accomplish the use of the relay switching without consuming a bunch of power.

SSR's that were inspired by Craig & I. Huge Lugs & Pads ...

Big Lug 500A SSR : https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...m=a2747.manage.0.0.3d1571d2AmThhr&bypass=true

Big Lug 1000A SSR : https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...317242imd258&fullFirstScreen=true&bypass=true

* NOTE, They are presently in transit on the lazy path therefore I haven't tested them yet, I don't think Craig got his yet either.

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The cell differential is never an issue in a cell monitoring LVD BMS (which is pretty much all of them. even the $10 bms).

If one of the cells drops a lot, LVD will still be triggered. BMS will never ever use pack nominal for LVD. I have never seen a single BMS on the market that does that. That would not make sense.

Yeah, if you like the screen, go for it. That's personal preference. I don't like it, but its just an opinion. I am glad you like it :D

YES the default settings absolutely could be improved for various chemistries. On the first page it asks what chemistry I am using. It should set the defaults accordingly.

Nearly every BMS on the market has the same LiFePO4 settings. They are pretty common. The chargery does not. Sure you can change it, but it would be nice to have a standard profile on there. I don't know why it wouldn't.

Holy cow those relays look fantastic!! Yes please. That would be great!

Will Prowse said:

Would you agree that a separate menu option showing all 3 variable inputs for current calibration, would be a better format? The current input method is lazy software engineering. It would not take much work to show all three variables in a separate menu.

Yes please calibrate all BMS, including xiaoxiang.

Having a resistance value input for shunt is still ideal. You can use your own meter, your own shunt, and it will work flawlessly. The calibration setup on the chargery does not have this option. It is not hard to add this option for manual calibration.

It would take a day of coding to have both methods of calibration. It really is not hard to add.

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Yes .... I do agree the calibration procedure could be made easier ..... But I don't agree that simply entering a resistance value is necessarily going to result in as good a calibration ... but I have not used a BMS with that capability yet.

As far as the relay selection in the other post .... I know you mentioned using SSR, but I thought you said maybe the Chargery could be modified to use one .... or something like that. I didn't go back and listen again. We all came to the conclusion some time ago that those high current relays were a bad idea.

It doesn't seem that you are giving Chargery credit for taking our feedback and doing changes .... time will tell, but I think Jason will appreciate your critical video and make adjustments.

Thanks for taking the time to respond, by the way. Hope you appreciate our critical feedback as well.


Edit .... Oh, I forgot. Maybe you should try to see why your cells are so far out of balance ... and change some of the balancing parameters to get that under control.

I agree with Will 100% concerning the relays. Tgats why I do not use or stock the Chargery ones.
I completely disagree about the LVD. Just last night I got here to my off grid place. And my batteries were low and it was raining. This is ok they were not so low as to trigger the inverter LVD and I use hardly any AC at night so low was not a problem until 3 AM when the inverters LV Alarm started going off. Had I had my chargery set up it would of been set to turn inverter off before alarm kept me up half the night. So in the real world there is use for Chargeries LVD. Hopefully with my new pack the batteries never get that low. But anyway it would of been nice.

I couldn't give a rip about pretty displays as long as I get the data I need which for me is each cells voltage. So I never use the guage display.

I do appreciate Will's video on this though I would rather people be informed than thinking everything is always cut and dry simple.

Craig said:

I agree with Will 100% concerning the relays. Tgats why I do not use or stock the Chargery ones.
I completely disagree about the LVD. Just last night I got here to my off grid place. And my batteries were low and it was raining. This is ok they were not so low as to trigger the inverter LVD and I use hardly any AC at night so low was not a problem until 3 AM when the inverters LV Alarm started going off. Had I had my chargery set up it would of been set to turn inverter off before alarm kept me up half the night. So in the real world there is use for Chargeries LVD. Hopefully with my new pack the batteries never get that low. But anyway it would of been nice.

I couldn't give a rip about pretty displays as long as I get the data I need which for me is each cells voltage. So I never use the guage display.

I do appreciate Will's video on this though I would rather people be informed than thinking everything is always cut and dry simple.

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What do you disagree about? That LVD is at cell level and not pack nominal? And sounds like your inverter does not have a programmable LVD. So my point does not matter for your situation at all. It was implied that you can modify your inverter LVD to be higher than the BMS LVD.

In my point, I implied that cycle bandwidth be controlled with programmable LVD inverter. That means that your inverter would not make a sound because it would turn itself off at the voltage you input. If you have a cheap inverter that does not have a programmable LVD, it may beep, and a BMS shutting down at a SOC or cell specific voltage would be ideal for you. You can program if it will beep on most high quality inverters.

What inverter are you referring to?

Bob B said:

Yes .... I do agree the calibration procedure could be made easier ..... But I don't agree that simply entering a resistance value is necessarily going to result in as good a calibration ... but I have not used a BMS with that capability yet.

As far as the relay selection in the other post .... I know you mentioned using SSR, but I thought you said maybe the Chargery could be modified to use one .... or something like that. I didn't go back and listen again. We all came to the conclusion some time ago that those high current relays were a bad idea.

It doesn't seem that you are giving Chargery credit for taking our feedback and doing changes .... time will tell, but I think Jason will appreciate your critical video and make adjustments.

Thanks for taking the time to respond, by the way. Hope you appreciate our critical feedback as well.


Edit .... Oh, I forgot. Maybe you should try to see why your cells are so far out of balance ... and change some of the balancing parameters to get that under control.

Click to expand...

Yes it will give you an accurate calibration. A shunt is not complex and a resistance value will give you 100% accurate results every time. It's just a shunt, nothing special at all. You can do the calculations on your own. Or even make your own shunt if you wish. It is easy.

An SSR for inverter control or as a disconnect for high current capacitative loads? Not sure what you mean there.

I think Jason is trying to make money selling his ebike BMS to the DIY solar market. I do not know Jason and I do not give any special treatment to any company trying to sell a product. I judge products for how they function. If they can make it an ideal solution for solar batteries compared to other options, I will love it.

I used half the cells in another project and cycled them. I did not top balance them at all and it would probably take a few days to do it. My video was not a demonstration of cell balancing, but one of BMS functionality. The cell deviation voltage is still better suited for other chemistries of lithium ion battery. Not LiFePO4 at low c rates.

This may not be the best BMS for land based solar, but I still find this BMS compelling for the RV and Marine market given its ability to have separate charge and load disconnect. Boats for eg have big charge current and periodic large discharge demands (windlass for eg) and each needs to dealt with carefully.

Also, its relay control outputs can handle a decent amount of current in comparison to most of its competitors providing more options on useable relay controls.

The configurable alarm outputs of a pending HVC or LVC are also a great feature on a RV or Boat.

Other BMS that have these options like the Orion or the REC are much better made but significantly more $ so can't really compare.

Now having said the above, i don't own one and this is all form reading the manual - but I am a perspective customer.

Improvements could include a version made for 13v nominal systems , as it seems to require a 15volt input which is annoying and requires i assume a step up transformer for 13v systems. Also a version (or add on module) that can manage latching relays ( like the Blue Sea 500amp relays) would also be very handy.

MP

Will Prowse said:

What do you disagree about? That LVD is at cell level and not pack nominal? And sounds like your inverter does not have a programmable LVD. So my point does not matter for your situation at all. It was implied that you can modify your inverter LVD to be higher than the BMS LVD.

In my point, I implied that cycle bandwidth be controlled with programmable LVD inverter. That means that your inverter would not make a sound because it would turn itself off at the voltage you input. If you have a cheap inverter that does not have a programmable LVD, it may beep, and a BMS shutting down at a SOC or cell specific voltage would be ideal for you. You can program if it will beep on most high quality inverters.

What inverter are you referring to?

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Yes you are correct my good samlex inverter can be programmed for LVD then again it can also accept signal from BMS for shut off.

My cheap wzrlb/reliable inverter is not adjustable. That is the one that kept me up all night.

About a month ago I purchased a 16s chargery BMS from Craig.

I’m new to the lithium battery world and putting the finishing touches on a very cool lead acid to LiOn boat conversion (electric boat with max draw of 100A at 32v). Despite not doing anything with solar, I’ve found this site and wills videos to be very helpful.

as a newbie, I actually like the BMS from chargery. It’s ugly, but it’s raw and very customizable. The outputs for charge and discharge cutoff can be integrated in a variety of ways. And even as a first timer, it was not too difficult.

yes, the shunt that came with the unit wasn’t even CLOSE to calibrated. But it’s not hard to calibrate. Manual sucks.

but so far I like the BMS.

i also ordered a 25A charger directly from Jason... initially this charger was pretty nifty... programmable on the fly and you can select charge rate and end voltage and different settings for chemistries AND it communicates with the chargery bms vía little data cord to shut off or slow charging if cells imbalance or overcharge etc

HOWEVER, the charger broke a week after I received. Jason is giving me refund less the $100 shipping (both ways) .... which has left me with a bit of a sour taste. Maybe he will take a bit more responsibility, we’ll see.

I’ll be using an elcon charger which has enable/disable wires that can be controlled with a small relay controlled by the bms. Neat!

Overall, I’m happy with chargery bms. Durability and longevity yet to be determined

Will Prowse said:

I think Jason is trying to make money selling his ebike BMS to the DIY solar market. I do not know Jason and I do not give any special treatment to any company trying to sell a product. I judge products for how they function. If they can make it an ideal solution for solar batteries compared to other options, I will love it.

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Seems like you have a problem with an E-Bike BMS being used for static storage system. Batteries don't care what application they are being used for, although I think that they are more relaxed being used as Energy Storage versus being thrashed by an E-Bike or similar.

I thought I had clarified another point too. Jason (Chargery) is / was not targeting our application, I made that connection last year when I listened to advice from another solar builder and investigated using the Chargery, at which time I posted about Chargery HERE ON THIS FORUM myself to let folks know about Chargery. The First post I started was one month or so after I got my first one (used to replace the BMS in that ShunBin Nightmare pack). "Chargery BMS now with Low Temp Cutoff, Thread starter Steve_S, Start date Jan 8, 2020 , which is in my signature and people have looked.

It was a real toss up between Chargery & the TinyBMS https://www.energusps.com/shop/product/tiny-bms-s516-150a-750a-36?category=4 but by the time you add up all the bits & pieces in Euro's it's a pricey situation too... considering you even have to buy the wires separately, that was a bit much IMO.

Oh well, when I'm done building my stuff and posting the details on the packs etc the "Chargery BMS" thing will plod long at it's own pace. At least my update of the manual is appreciated by the users here. As more people DL the manuals and see the link to this Forum on the front page I expect Chargery Chatter will continue. I hope that Jason and the gang @ Chargery can apply the suggestions (constructive ones) and improve the product for everyone's benefit.

Yes @Steve_S makes a great point Chargery does not necessarily market to the solar market. About the same time as Steve came to his conclusion to purchase a Chargery I came to my own as well.
I was so happy with the product that I ordered 25 to have some here in the USA to help others get them faster.

It is actually pretty impressive that Jason has gone out if his way to make the modifications he has. I gave contacted other manufacturers about small possible changes or customizations and have been told no or it's not possible.

Although I have no problem with the unit as it is I independently of Steve will keep working with Jason on upgrades.

Steve and Craig, thank you both!

Steve_S said:

SSR's that were inspired by Craig & I. Huge Lugs & Pads ...

Big Lug 500A SSR : https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...m=a2747.manage.0.0.3d1571d2AmThhr&bypass=true

Big Lug 1000A SSR : https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...317242imd258&fullFirstScreen=true&bypass=true

* NOTE, They are presently in transit on the lazy path therefore I haven't tested them yet, I don't think Craig got his yet either.

Click to expand...

Looking forward to your evaluation. I find the SSR specification lacking. ON resistance is extremely important. It's not listed. We may infer ON resistance can be calculated from max on-state voltage drop (<1V) and max current (500A). On resistance is 1V/500A = 2 m ohm. That's a lot for a power switch. Hence the big heat sink. Quality relays have a 0.1V max on-state voltage drop. They have a factor 10 lower contact power dissipation (and on resistance).

Can you inquire what the switch on resistance is?

Latching relays might be a better way to go?

Steve_S said:

Seems like you have a problem with an E-Bike BMS being used for static storage system. Batteries don't care what application they are being used for, although I think that they are more relaxed being used as Energy Storage versus being thrashed by an E-Bike or similar.

I thought I had clarified another point too. Jason (Chargery) is / was not targeting our application, I made that connection last year when I listened to advice from another solar builder and investigated using the Chargery, at which time I posted about Chargery HERE ON THIS FORUM myself to let folks know about Chargery. The First post I started was one month or so after I got my first one (used to replace the BMS in that ShunBin Nightmare pack). "Chargery BMS now with Low Temp Cutoff, Thread starter Steve_S, Start date Jan 8, 2020 , which is in my signature and people have looked.

It was a real toss up between Chargery & the TinyBMS https://www.energusps.com/shop/product/tiny-bms-s516-150a-750a-36?category=4 but by the time you add up all the bits & pieces in Euro's it's a pricey situation too... considering you even have to buy the wires separately, that was a bit much IMO.

Oh well, when I'm done building my stuff and posting the details on the packs etc the "Chargery BMS" thing will plod long at it's own pace. At least my update of the manual is appreciated by the users here. As more people DL the manuals and see the link to this Forum on the front page I expect Chargery Chatter will continue. I hope that Jason and the gang @ Chargery can apply the suggestions (constructive ones) and improve the product for everyone's benefit.

Click to expand...

No, I do not have a problem with ebike BMS used for stationary purpose. I just think the default values for LiFePO4 should be user friendly. For example, SOC cut off at 20%? As a default value? That is plain silly. Especially if someone is new to the BMS world and needs to capacity test their first pack. That should be set to 0% and changed if a user wants that functionality.

That is awesome that you made that connection and added low temp cut off. Good job, it helps people who want to use this BMS. Very cool.

I have not used TinyBMS but yeah, seems expensive. I am ignorant on how well it works.

Yes the user manual updated is much appreciated. Thank you for doing that. I hope Jason considers all of the changes I mentioned in the video I made about it. Thatt would be cool.

Cal said:

1. I have a 300A BMS in my RV. The RV has a quiescent current of 0.3 to 0.7A (7 to 17 AH/day). The BMS does not register this current, nor does it reduce Watt-hrs on the display. The BMS should have a detailed specification, listing voltage and current accuracy. I personally would rather see a AH display than the Watt-hrs. After all, the battery is rated in AH.

2. I use Com 3 (RS232) to log data. The data stream does not appear to be that stable. The calculated check sum does not equal the packet check sum on some packets.

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Of all the things discussed, these 2 from Cal are the ones that seem most relevant to me. I too have been concerned that smaller current loads can be "lost" with a high current shunt. It's kind of like trying to measure a 10 ohm resister with the meter set to the mega ohm range. I'm not sure what can be done to mitigate this. I don't necessarily think it's a Chargery issue ... maybe an issue with high current shunts in general?

I have followed the Chargery communications threads, but have not yet tried to bring data from the Chargery into another system. I wish there were better communications options .... and am pretty sure that is being worked on at Chargery .... but I got no answer to my question about when those options will be available.