2 months lead acid battery - today noticed sulfation and just a bit swollen

[SolarRat]

ok, I'll try to send the pictures tomorrow with more light.

I was only kidding, it's probably normal. It takes a lot of overcharging to swell a 6v golf cart battery...no way in hell you are producing that kind of power with your setup. No way you are overcharging them.

Those are great batteries if you can charge them. If you can throw them on a mains AC charger once in a while to fully charge them they can last you a long time.

 

[Ped]

Right, and that is a design problem not a bad battery. He said he lets it charge a couple days between uses. For all we know he only draws 300w replaces it with 400w. We have no idea. It all sounds normal to me unless he's complaining about run-time, which he hasn't yet.

None of that matters with lead acid. if soc isnt hitting 100% its killing the battery. And the only way to do that is hitting 14.6v+ and holding it there. Again 20hrs is about the min recharge time estimate which is more like 3-5 days and thats already too long to stave off sulphation.

But you have a point...is it dropping charge fast signifying sulfation?

 

[Rider]

You know..... I have to take all of this with a grain of salt. Not the OP's issue, but the overall concept of lead acid battery charging, what is right, what is wrong, it's not this, it's too much that......

Nearly every one of our cars have a lead acid battery. Very few are AGM. But we don't think twice about them. Pull massive amounts of current to start the car/truck, drive a few blocks, turn it off. How often do you do that? Is it getting "fully charged" ? What's it's daily DoD? Is it sulfated? Who knows? The only indicator for the battery that many people have is an idiot light on the dash. Better vehicles have a voltage gauge. Ok, how often do you actually look at the gauge and evaluate the potential condition of the battery? Yet, contrary to everything, the battery will last 5 years or more, thru terrible slams and bounces, blazing hot weather, freezing cold weather, partial charges..... and the only time we get concerned is when the engine won't turn over.

My truck battery was 5 years old, and I noticed the engine turned over just a touch slower. I figured rather than get stuck sometime this winter, I got a new one. Paid the core charge and kept the 80Ah original, and it's now part of my solar system with tons of power for that application.

Knowing what's going on is ok. Continually over-managing and over-thinking everything isn't. If it has a real problem, address it. If it's working as intended, leave it be. It will be ok... really.

 

[terry98]

You know..... I have to take all of this with a grain of salt. Not the OP's issue, but the overall concept of lead acid battery charging, what is right, what is wrong, it's not this, it's too much that......

Nearly every one of our cars have a lead acid battery. Very few are AGM. But we don't think twice about them. Pull massive amounts of current to start the car/truck, drive a few blocks, turn it off. How often do you do that? Is it getting "fully charged" ? What's it's daily DoD? Is it sulfated? Who knows? The only indicator for the battery that many people have is an idiot light on the dash. Better vehicles have a voltage gauge. Ok, how often do you actually look at the gauge and evaluate the potential condition of the battery? Yet, contrary to everything, the battery will last 5 years or more, thru terrible slams and bounces, blazing hot weather, freezing cold weather, partial charges..... and the only time we get concerned is when the engine won't turn over.

My truck battery was 5 years old, and I noticed the engine turned over just a touch slower. I figured rather than get stuck sometime this winter, I got a new one. Paid the core charge and kept the 80Ah original, and it's now part of my solar system with tons of power for that application.

Knowing what's going on is ok. Continually over-managing and over-thinking everything isn't. If it has a real problem, address it. If it's working as intended, leave it be. It will be ok... really.

I guess you couldn't be more right man.

 

[SolarRat]

None of that matters with lead acid. if soc isnt hitting 100% its killing the battery. And the only way to do that is hitting 14.6v+ and holding it there. Again 20hrs is about the min recharge time estimate which is more like 3-5 days and thats already too long to stave off sulphation.

But you have a point...is it dropping charge fast signifying sulfation?

Yes, I've posted all that here many times. But this is not an ideal situation, and there will be no ideal answer. His problem is a 350w solar panel is only producing 200wh a day because it is shaded by the balcony rails. Lead acid storage batteries are not wimpy like lithiums, they can and usually do take a lot of abuse. A little sulfate won't brick them, just drastically shorten their lives But there's a good bet his batteries will outlast his panel with that shading problem (overheat problems?). A single 100w panel in the sun will outproduce a 350w panel 1/4 shaded...

 

[SolarRat]

You know..... I have to take all of this with a grain of salt. Not the OP's issue, but the overall concept of lead acid battery charging, what is right, what is wrong, it's not this, it's too much that......

Nearly every one of our cars have a lead acid battery. Very few are AGM. But we don't think twice about them. Pull massive amounts of current to start the car/truck, drive a few blocks, turn it off. How often do you do that? Is it getting "fully charged" ? What's it's daily DoD? Is it sulfated? Who knows? The only indicator for the battery that many people have is an idiot light on the dash. Better vehicles have a voltage gauge. Ok, how often do you actually look at the gauge and evaluate the potential condition of the battery? Yet, contrary to everything, the battery will last 5 years or more, thru terrible slams and bounces, blazing hot weather, freezing cold weather, partial charges..... and the only time we get concerned is when the engine won't turn over.

My truck battery was 5 years old, and I noticed the engine turned over just a touch slower. I figured rather than get stuck sometime this winter, I got a new one. Paid the core charge and kept the 80Ah original, and it's now part of my solar system with tons of power for that application.

Knowing what's going on is ok. Continually over-managing and over-thinking everything isn't. If it has a real problem, address it. If it's working as intended, leave it be. It will be ok... really.

Exactly. Truth be told, the lowly lead acid would probably outlast good lithiums in the hands of many people here (who will toast their new lithiums with just one small mistake), and probably longer than many Ali-special lithiums period, if cared for. They are MUCH more forgiving than many here realize.

 

[Rider]

Exactly. Truth be told, the lowly lead acid would probably outlast lithiums in the hands of many people here (who will toast their new lithiums with just one small mistake). They are MUCH more forgiving than many here realize.

Agreed. There is a general theme that if you don't have lithium, you are looked down upon. Just re-read all of the threads of people having issues with lithium batteries. Everything from bad cells to flaky BMS to undersize internal wiring to overcharge/undercharge issues..... How many folks complaining about lead acid? People pay a TON of money for lithium. Until the lithium smoke clears, bad vendors sorted out, prices drop, I'll stay with a lead acid and deal with it's weight and LACK of all other issues. Plug and play.

 

[gnubie]

Yeah, but cranking batteries are a very different beast to deep cycle batteries.

Car / truck batteries are a marvel of engineering in their own right. They have so many requirements that are in conflict. That they last 5 years or more is nothing short of miraculous and testimony to the degree of engineering effort that has gone into their design over the years.

 

[Ped]

Sulphation doesnt shorten their life. It doesnt have any affect on cell shorting. It coats the lead blocking electron flow and makes them progressively useless.

They are highly temperamental. They DO NOT take the slightest bit of misuse AT ALL. you over charge you cause grid corrosion. You over-discharge you cause extreme lead degridation. You under charge you cause sulphation. They are physcally impossible to recharge by solar alone at least 1/3 of the year. They are extremely inefficient taking way more input than they output.

They are more expensive than lifepo4 any way you look at it.

 

[SolarRat]

Yeah, but cranking batteries are a very different beast to deep cycle batteries.

Car / truck batteries are a marvel of engineering in their own right. They have so many requirements that are in conflict. That they last 5 years or more is nothing short of miraculous and testimony to the degree of engineering effort that has gone into their design over the years.

A 6v golfcart/RV/deep cycle battery is much more robust than a normal car/starting battery. Much. They normally have harder lives, but it is not uncommon for the RV guys to have a set last 10 years when cared for and not deeply cycled.

 

[SolarRat]

Sulphation doesnt shorten their life. It doesnt have any affect on cell shorting. It coats the lead blocking electron flow and makes them progressively useless.

They are highly temperamental. They DO NOT take the slightest bit of misuse AT ALL. you over charge you cause grid corrosion. You over-discharge you cause extreme lead degridation. You under charge physicause sulphation. They are physcally impossible to recharge by solar alone.

Yet we've been using them for over a century, with all types of sub-ideal charging. Remember the old days, you plug a big dumb buzzbox into a battery and accidentally forget about it, 3 days later it's smoking? Still worked tho. They have many shortcomings. They are also 1/10th the price of reputable lithium. Have you ever even used them, besides in your car?

 

[Ped]

Theres no getting around their inherent internal resistance and charge inefficiency. Theres no getting around the time it takes to reach 100% soc. Theres no getting around sulphation from under-charging.

So when you live in reality of these physical principles, the cost it takes to make them last half as long as lifepo4 is as much or more than even the average drop-in.

 

[Rider]

They are highly temperamental. They DO NOT take the slightest bit of misuse AT ALL. you over charge you cause grid corrosion. You over-discharge you cause extreme lead degridation. You under charge you cause sulphation. They are physcally impossible to recharge by solar alone at least 1/3 of the year. They are extremely inefficient taking way more input than they output.

Holy carp.........

 

[terry98]

I been running solar everyday since 2011.

and I have just started xD but I really appreciate all the help you all have given.

 

[gnubie]

I can see merit in a lot of what has been said here, but to say that it's physically impossible to recharge by solar alone is a bit off.

 

[Ped]

I can see merit in a lot of what has been said here, but to say that it's physically impossible to recharge by solar alone is a bit off.

No it is not. The sun is not in the sky long enough unless youre maybe doing 10% dod.

You can only bulk charge so fast. You can only absorption charge so fast. The resistance to charge rises with specific gravity. Again even high end AGM take bare min 5 hrs at .4c which would destroy FLA.

From lifeline (dod/100) x (ah/c) + 3ab then x 1.25 for real world.

Charging at max rate of c/6 (750w per 6v set) and you have the efficiency of high quality AGM (90%) it takes 7+ hours to reach 1.265 SG.

 

[Rider]

Huh. Then I guess my system is a total and complete anomaly and just shouldn't work. I guess I'll take it apart.

 

[Ped]

You might have magic batteries that defy the laws of physics. Maybe let tesla know theyre doing lithium for no reason.

 

[gnubie]

My own 120ah AGMs get a good work out daily running 24VDC around my yard etc. DoD would be approx 25% overnight. Batteries are pulled up to full charge daily by a 1kW array and overall capacity remaining is nicely on the curve I'd expect them to follow, and yes I have checked because I'm that sort of person.

Could it be that Tesla is using lithium because of its superior power / weight / volume ratio? Yes, I think that might just be it.

 

[SolarRat]

i was going to reply to your "I been running solar everyday since 2011. " post but I no longer see it. Weird. But that wasn't my question. My question was have you used lead acids in anything other than your car, and I guess that's a no. Myself and millions like me have been using them for storage banks for decades. Your doomsday theories are uninformed.