EG4 PowerPro UL listing required for battery backup?

[rpatel18]

I've ordered a EG4 PowerPro battery that I plan on using with an EG4 6000ex inverter for a battery backup solution for our home and hearing that they are delayed till late Oct now. It'll plug into a generator inlet for when the power goes out and I'm having a hard time understanding if I need the battery to be UL listed if its used in such a manner. I live in Menlo Park, CA and Energy Storage Systems do require UL 9540 but don't know if that also applies to backup power thats plugged in when needed? Maybe the opposite question is better... when is UL listing not required?

 

[DIYrich]

Batteries (dc) connect to battery terminal, not the generator inlet (ac)

 

[Adeon]

I mean, that’s an off grid inverter, you kinda roll the dice there

 

[robby]

I Agree that you’re rolling the dice.
I assume that it’s not going to be used unless you have a power outage and that you will not have PV on the property and just use grid charging? If so they may not care and just classify it like a generator. The downside is that LFP batteries do not like left being fully charged for long periods.
If you are using PV and running the system on a regular basis then your bill will drop and that will trigger an automatic inspection of the electrical system by the power company. Once they see the panels then problems may start.

 

[zanydroid]

I know there is are a few proposals to exclude UPS from ESS but I haven’t looked into the details on how it interacts with the battery, or how far they are from adoption.

But several of those proposals require the UPS to be listed to the UPS standard. I’ve not noticed that listing on inverters before.

 

[zanydroid]

I wonder if SGIP or VPP eligibility will offset upgrading to the 18kpv, those require a permitted system to jump through the gates locking the funds. $150-250/kwh credit for SGIP

PowerPro is over 10kWh so I believe is in large scale, not residential storage category. SGIP is quite complicated though and you may be in a 1-2 year waitlist for funding to be available in state budget

If you have solar already you can also look into using forced export to offset more of the incremental cost. That requires interconnect approval of ESS which requires UL9540 equipment

 

[Browse]

I do the same thing with my system. I have a 12k inverter with 20kwh of rack mount batteries for emergency backup only. I connect to my interlock via a generator cord and input box. The system is off and disconnected unless there's a power outage and I hook it up just like a generator. If an inspector came in and looked at my setup during normal times, I would just say it's an engineering project I'm working on, nothing is connected to the house so just ignore it. No different than having an Ecoflow Delta Pro sitting there in the basement with nothing connected.

 

[robby]

I do the same thing with my system. I have a 12k inverter with 20kwh of rack mount batteries for emergency backup only. I connect to my interlock via a generator cord and input box. The system is off and disconnected unless there's a power outage and I hook it up just like a generator. If an inspector came in and looked at my setup during normal times, I would just say it's an engineering project I'm working on, nothing is connected to the house so just ignore it. No different than having an Ecoflow Delta Pro sitting there in the basement with nothing connected.

As I said it's very dependent on what the Inspector came there for.
If it's about your usage decreasing by 30% over a three month period then all the explanations in the world will mean nothing. They are not stupid and they know your not using that equipment for just power outages.
They will simply order you to apply for a grid tied contract or else they will disconnect the mains power.

 

[zanydroid]

As I said it's very dependent on what the Inspector came there for.
If it's about your usage decreasing by 30% over a three month period then all the explanations in the world will mean nothing. They are not stupid and they know your not using that equipment for just power outages.
They will simply order you to apply for a grid tied contract or else they will disconnect the mains power.

How would they see 30% decrease with battery only system?

I can see them detecting shift in consumption time though (this reduced cost on TOU) with a battery only system.

 

[Browse]

In 28 years of owning houses, I've never had an electrical inspector from the town come to my houses. He would have to be invited in before he saw anything of concern. I don't have solar, so there is just a battery rack on wheels and an inverter. I could theoretically roll the battery rack into the garage and roll up the generator cord around the inverter and there would be nothing to inspect. I can't see how an inspector could make a case that I have anything connected if there is nothing connected. When he leaves, I'd just roll back the rack next to the inverter and load center.

If power is out, the electric company isn't going to be seeing any meter activity since my main breaker would be off. I don't have AC feeding the inverter at all. If power is out long enough, I can hook my generator to the Chargeverter to power up the battery rack.

 

[robby]

How would they see 30% decrease with battery only system?

I can see them detecting shift in consumption time though (this reduced cost on TOU) with a battery only system.

They won't!
I am talking about if you are using PV and supplementing your power in the night or day to save some $$ on your electric bill. If your using it purely as a backup then things should be fine.

I never had an Inspector come to my house until I hooked up my Solar system. Even though they had the paper work, the Left hand in Accounting did not seem to know what the Right hand in Engineering had on file. All the accounting computers saw was a huge drop in my electric bill over three months and that triggered another inspection.

 

[zanydroid]

Ah ok, that makes a ton of sense. Also the solar panels up there are a pretty solid giveaway.

In some cases they may be happy enough if the inverter has no chance of backfeeding

 

[rpatel18]

I do the same thing with my system. I have a 12k inverter with 20kwh of rack mount batteries for emergency backup only. I connect to my interlock via a generator cord and input box. The system is off and disconnected unless there's a power outage and I hook it up just like a generator. If an inspector came in and looked at my setup during normal times, I would just say it's an engineering project I'm working on, nothing is connected to the house so just ignore it. No different than having an Ecoflow Delta Pro sitting there in the basement with nothing connected.

this is actually the exact setup I'm building out. Plugs into a generator inlet and will also charge the battery via the EG4 chargerverter from a 120v outlet.

reason I'm setting it up as a "generator" is because I'm in a rental and need a power backup as we experience power outages during the rainy season. I have thought about a typical gas generator but my goal is to have a back up power source that I can turn on and leave in the garage so I don't have to worry about the elements outside (rain and wind), and that can power my heat pump and keep some critical circuits on. Easiest option was to just wire in a generator inlet w/ interlock to use.

 

[zanydroid]

There are a lot fewer options to let's say cost optimize this kind of project as a renter.

A 6000EX + PowerPro (200 lb of equipment that needs to be secured to the wall, and potentially wall to be prepped with new fireproof sheathing) is a significant alternation to a rental. As a landlord I would expect the tenant to discuss this with me. Also I would require any permanent changes to wiring to be done by a licensed contractor with permit paper trail. That's the rational approach a fully informed landlord would do. Now wiring of the 6000EX to PowerPro, there could be some debate on whether all informed, rational landlords would want that also done with a licensed contractor. At minimum there needs to be a firm agreement that all wiring / equipment be removed upon end of lease.

Buying something like Delta Pro with 120/240 capability and then hiring an electrical contractor to do the interlock would be a cleaner approach.

A lot of the portable equipment is 120V. In an owner-occupied house I would have no problem considering shortcuts like a step-up autotransformer. But in a rental I dunno about that. And it is likely difficult to find an electrician that will wire that up for you.

 

[rpatel18]

There are a lot fewer options to let's say cost optimize this kind of project as a renter.

A 6000EX + PowerPro (200 lb of equipment that needs to be secured to the wall, and potentially wall to be prepped with new fireproof sheathing) is a significant alternation to a rental. As a landlord I would expect the tenant to discuss this with me. Also I would require any permanent changes to wiring to be done by a licensed contractor with permit paper trail. That's the rational approach a fully informed landlord would do. Now wiring of the 6000EX to PowerPro, there could be some debate on whether all informed, rational landlords would want that also done with a licensed contractor. At minimum there needs to be a firm agreement that all wiring / equipment be removed upon end of lease.

Buying something like Delta Pro with 120/240 capability and then hiring an electrical contractor to do the interlock would be a cleaner approach.

A lot of the portable equipment is 120V. In an owner-occupied house I would have no problem considering shortcuts like a step-up autotransformer. But in a rental I dunno about that. And it is likely difficult to find an electrician that will wire that up for you.

all good points... I did check w/ the landlord on this and got their electrician to wire in the generator inlet and interlock already.

As for mounting the battery and inverter, my plan is to build a mobile cart for the two.

 

[rpatel18]

changing my whole setup now... got a good deal on 2 ecoflow delta 2's for $1,839 each (refurb'd)... figured this will be a lot easier for backup. Before they were like $3k plus each but $1,839 is a pretty good deal I feel like.

 

[Browse]

changing my whole setup now... got a good deal on 2 ecoflow delta 2's for $1,839 each (refurb'd)... figured this will be a lot easier for backup. Before they were like $3k plus each but $1,839 is a pretty good deal I feel like.

I'm guessing you meant two Delta Pros?