House burned down

[robbob2112]

AIC rating can vary with voltage.

Interrupt Capacity

10000A @ 14V DC 5000A @ 32V DC 2000A @ 58V DC

MRBF Terminal Fuse - 30A - Blue Sea Systems

Space-saving ignition protected fuse for 30 to 300 Amp loads. Must use with Terminal Fuse Block.

www.bluesea.com

Agreed, but a 600v fuse used on a line with 500vdc and 30amps shouldn't have a problem so long as the 30 amps is not exceeded.

But, the resistance of fuses does vary by the amp rating, which means heat output varies by amp rating.

From my testing with the class T and Chint fuses the higher the amp rating the lower the internal resistance.

From looking back earlier in this thread where I posted a picture of a bunch of fuses side by side, the larger the higher the voltage rating the larger the fuse. The Class T in the picture are rated 125vdc and 160vdc. The larger is physicaly bigger. The Chint have a way higher voltage rating and much larger. But their internal resistace is higher so more heat loss. But they sit in the holder in open air to disipate the heat.

See

House burned down

Possible solution: BACK UP. This guy is FUSED 🤣 1 on each battery, 1 300amp anl and 1 T class. 🤣 fused Probably had a fire - bad experience Link for the contactor? The MRBF is probably OK, but I get them from Mouser for eaton brand.

diysolarforum.com

Now, all that said - our friend @dianea had a fuse mounted to a DIN rail and looked like screwed to a sheetrock wall verse inside an enclosure and she was kind enough to post a picture of it as a warning - so I was asking for any details she could provide about the fuse itself. As in type/voltage/amps from which we can see why it did what it did.

I suspect from the picture there was a short somplace or more likely the fuse was being run near its amp limits and it heated up like the filament in an old light bulb. and burned the wall and melted whatever the casing it. That looks like a fuse holder that has a flip out door and you put a fuse inside it.


P.S. @dianea - if you have more pictures I would like to see one from farther way showing all the damage, looks like the wire on the right had a melted sheath.

 

[AntronX]

The voltage rating is where it won't arc over/through the insulation into anything else.

The voltage rating is so that it can safely break an arc and not explode/catch fire and cause this forum thread.

 

[yabert]

From dianea: ''It was a set of AC 600 volt fuses on a 500 volt DC feed from the panels''
AC voltage is way easier to break than DC voltage.
It's why some class T fuse have 200ka AC interrupting rating, but only 20ka DC rating.

 

[robbob2112]

From dianea: ''It was a set of AC 600 volt fuses on a 500 volt DC feed from the panels''
AC voltage is way easier to break than DC voltage.
It's why some class T fuse have 200ka AC interrupting rating, but only 20ka DC rating.

I missed the AC part of that, but most AC fuses are also rated as DC fuses at lower volts. And it makes a difference on fuse type of how much lower that rating is.

I do see your point now - valid - so she was using the incorrect rated fuse in that because her string voltage was so much higher that.

I think she was using something like this - (random off amazon) - 600vac might be a 380vdc fuse....

 

[dianea]

What sort of fuse was it? I ask because a 600v fuse on a 500v feed shouldn't matter at all. With fuses it is all about the current running through it. Most fuses are way over the voltage used. The voltage limitation is all about the insulation.

The vaporized fuses used to be Littlefuse CCMR 15, rated "600 VAC or less " no DC rating at all. This was in my shop and happened during destructive FAFO testing of improper parts. The fuses were installed in a surplus three phase Allen Bradley 1492-FB3C30 fuse holder with indicators. It's indicators weren't needed this time to let me know the fuses had failed. This experiment may suggest using wrong fuses for the wrong application with no enclosure might cause infinite more harm than any good. And a reminder that rated enclosures are a good idea...

 

[gotbeans]

So one thing I notice in all the pictures of the battery cells. It appears there is no separator between the individual cells? Seems like I remember reading that if they are under any sort of compression or even straight confinement sonthe expansion is limited there should be some sort of separator used?

I know in one of the threads the OP had one or more vented cells. Could that be a cause? Cell vent which off-gases hydrogen among other things. Shorted cell generates heat and with the hydrogen confined it just needs a spark. If the high current causes the fuse to blow but arc keeps it alive it will melt the casing and catch fire. One reason I don't like the ANN, ANL, and all their cousins.

Where do you get they off gas hydrogen from?
I know lead acid off gas plenty

All I see is this which doesn't directly say that

How safe are lithium iron phosphate batteries?

Researchers in the United Kingdom have analyzed lithium-ion battery thermal runaway off-gas and have found that nickel manganese cobalt (NMC) batteries generate larger specific off-gas volumes, while lithium iron phosphate (LFP) batteries are a greater flammability hazard and show greater...

www.pv-magazine.com

So uh where are you supposed to store propane tanks?
<eyes the 20lb tank in the garage>

make concrete boxes for it with hardie backer board
I put my batteries inside a big box as well
Probably need a vent outside for the propane tanks? but it'd protect them from other stuff getting at them
We have always had big tanks that are like 30ft away from the house sit outside, never inside

 

[robbob2112]

You are looking at Lipo batteries. When the electrolyte breaks down from a shorted or overcharged cell...i.e high temp vent


1. **Carbon Dioxide (CO2)** - From the breakdown of organic carbonate solvents.
2. **Carbon Monoxide (CO)** - From incomplete combustion or decomposition of the electrolyte.
3. **Hydrogen (H2)** - Generated from the decomposition of organic materials and electrolytes under extreme heat.
4. **Phosphorus Pentafluoride (PF5)** - Produced from the decomposition of LiPF6, a common lithium salt in the electrolyte.
5. **Phosphorus Oxyfluoride (POF3)** - Another decomposition product from LiPF6.
6. **Hydrogen Fluoride (HF)** - Forms when PF5 and POF3 react with moisture; highly corrosive.
7. **Lower Alkanes and Alkenes (e.g., methane, ethane)** - These can form through the breakdown of organic solvents under severe thermal conditions.

From the article you posted -

The composition of off-gas on average is very similar between NMC and LFP cells, but LFP batteries have greater hydrogen content, while NMC batteries have greater carbon monoxide content.

 

[D71]

I’ve got GAS.
Copper yellow tubing into black iron pipe which was fresh from China.
Mine.


BY CODE…420lb /120 gallon propane but anything larger goes 10feet away from home. Some HOA have additional higher requirements only propane allowed has to be buried tanks 10ft from home.

My garage right now. Shhhssss… sometimes these tanks leak. I never leave the valve open unless using. But. ….





Never ever tripped ….carbon monoxide alarm. Never ever. Somebody say can’t do that then they park … Charging EV or ICE half tank fuel or less…… in attached garage. Hush.

Now why did OP system go up in smoke? Was it in the garage? Some put their Solar inverter generators in home and park them…wire to pv and even tie into their home electrical system. Playing with fire. My small in home lifepo inverter generator setup…. Is Sitting next to my laptop with a battery that is not LiFePo in my closet. Hmmm….. had laptop for long time. No fires.

I was looking at a new lifepo power inverter generator setup the other day so went back to get screen shot to share. If they can’t get the advertising correct should they be trusted? Notice….ad.



Govt Test - start - intentional fires - explosions…for battery science and safety. These things in past were tested before being sold to public….UL Not anymore…..make it sell it let public test it until there is a problem. Then govt comes in.

More fun

Ppl are living dangerous. We do it all the time. The Samsung cell phones use to go up in flames too. the old disposable butane cigarette lighters were stated never to be around welding or cutting because spark would burn through - melt lighter housing and lighter explode. Some Ppl used them to light torch. I’ve used a butane soldering iron for years..
Stored energy - Dangerous

Notice Amazon Advertising. Caveat Emptor - Buyer Beware REASONABLE as Ignorance is no excuse….question becomes what is “reasonable” for burden. Also why you see sneaky disclaimers….example real estate agents often put up seller has to verify all stated is truth…ie: size home, property lines, school districts, so on.

“‘’’’’’
Cornell Law School Website.

caveat emptor​

Primary​

Caveat emptor is a common law doctrine that places the burden on buyers to reasonably examine property before making a purchase. A buyer who fails to meet this burden is unable to recover for defects in the product that would have been discovered had this burden been met. The phrase “caveat emptor” is Latin for “let the buyer beware.”
Caveat emptor principles are generally still followed today; however, they are subject to exceptions. Under the doctrine of concealment, for example, a seller who withholds material information when they have a duty to disclose is not protected by caveat emptor.
See, e.g. SEC v. Zandford, 535 U.S. 813 (2002).
See: Commercial law, Real property, Personal property
[Last updated in July of 2022 by the Wex Definitions Team]
“‘’’’

caveat emptor

www.law.cornell.edu

Ppl used to get sued for false advertising - govt had an agency just for that purpose Consumer Protection Agency.

 

[Brucey]

I was looking at a new lifepo power inverter generator setup the other day so went back to get screen shot to share. If they can’t get the advertising correct should they be trusted? Notice….ad.

Looks like some kind of possible scam while leveraging/cloning the Bluetti brand - BigBlue....

 

[D71]

Looks like some kind of possible scam while leveraging/cloning the Bluetti brand - BigBlue....

Them saying it is “fuel type: lpg” was hilarious too. Crazy thing …. Hard to know what to trust as safe anymore. Most everything is accessed or unknown risk. We live in a technological risk and potential danger for everything. like reading side effect on medicines. Why labels are there.

It is a crazy world. Titanic ….. sub going to see the Titanic = Titan
Those recorded bangs which were just released were last thing the crew heard in a ms before it registered for the failure. Died near instant.

Titan sub: Bangs that led to hope of crew's survival heard for first time

Noises that prompted hope in the search for the missing Titan submersible have been released to the media.

www.bbc.com

The Navy reported hearing those bangs in 1 news article…. Long distance away.

I bet the pictured fire at OP’s place made some crazy noise. He thought it was all figured out too. Comfortable even convinced. The story of Titanic and Titan. Same same comfortable convinced. Reality is Dangerous controlled but then the smoke gets out..

Caveat Emptor.

Me am looking at these batteries.



But looking at these too.




Hmmm imagine that sitting in your living room. Looks like modern furnishings. The EG4 battery has some kind of fire extinguisher built in their battery system Wonder what it is for that extinguisher?
HALON works well with fires but can kill everybody in closed room-space. Put out the fire but everyone dies because oxygen levels depleted. Win lose.

 

[Brucey]

Them saying it is “fuel type: lpg” was hilarious too. Crazy thing …. Hard to know what to trust as safe anymore. Most everything is accessed or unknown risk. We live in a technological risk and potential danger for everything. like reading side effect on medicines. Why labels are there.

It is a crazy world. Titanic ….. sub going to see the Titanic = Titan
Those recorded bangs which were just released were last thing the crew heard in a ms before it registered for the failure. Died near instant.

Titan sub: Bangs that led to hope of crew's survival heard for first time

Noises that prompted hope in the search for the missing Titan submersible have been released to the media.

www.bbc.com

The Navy reported hearing those bangs in 1 news article…. Long distance away.

I bet the pictured fire at OP’s place made some crazy noise. He thought it was all figured out too. Comfortable even convinced. The story of Titanic and Titan. Same same comfortable convinced. Reality is Dangerous controlled but then the smoke gets out..

Caveat Emptor.

Me am looking at these batteries.
View attachment 215413


But looking at these too.
View attachment 215414



Hmmm imagine that sitting in your living room. Looks like modern furnishings. The EG4 battery has some kind of fire extinguisher built in their battery system Wonder what it is for that extinguisher?
HALON works well with fires but can kill everybody in closed room-space. Put out the fire but everyone dies because oxygen levels depleted. Win lose.

This post has a link to what they use.

Post in thread 'EG4LL Fire Suppression Modules' https://diysolarforum.com/threads/eg4ll-fire-suppression-modules.68168/post-861835

 

[Hedges]

First of all, Halon doesn't work by depleting O2, it works by disrupting combustion.

I've specified Halotron before, but then learned the effective concentration is higher than the LD50.
Then I saw Ansul Clean-Guard used in another facility. Effective concentration is well below LD50.
I now have Clean-Guard in my home lab.

Instead of those architecturally attractive NEMA-1 batteries, I suggest a NEMA-3R model and use it as yard sculpture.

 

[robbob2112]

Them saying it is “fuel type: lpg” was hilarious too. Crazy thing …. Hard to know what to trust as safe anymore. Most everything is accessed or unknown risk. We live in a technological risk and potential danger for everything. like reading side effect on medicines. Why labels are there.

It is a crazy world. Titanic ….. sub going to see the Titanic = Titan
Those recorded bangs which were just released were last thing the crew heard in a ms before it registered for the failure. Died near instant.

Titan sub: Bangs that led to hope of crew's survival heard for first time

Noises that prompted hope in the search for the missing Titan submersible have been released to the media.

www.bbc.com

The Navy reported hearing those bangs in 1 news article…. Long distance away.

I bet the pictured fire at OP’s place made some crazy noise. He thought it was all figured out too. Comfortable even convinced. The story of Titanic and Titan. Same same comfortable convinced. Reality is Dangerous controlled but then the smoke gets out..

Caveat Emptor.

Me am looking at these batteries.
View attachment 215413


But looking at these too.
View attachment 215414



Hmmm imagine that sitting in your living room. Looks like modern furnishings. The EG4 battery has some kind of fire extinguisher built in their battery system Wonder what it is for that extinguisher?
HALON works well with fires but can kill everybody in closed room-space. Put out the fire but everyone dies because oxygen levels depleted. Win lose.

5 rules -
Never trust the advertising on Amazon for anything unless it is a vendor/brand/type you have researched outside of amazon
Always do your own research, only listen to people you trust/respect and still at least do a little research.
If it is to good to be true it isn't
If it is to good a deal to pass up, it isn't
If it is to good to be true or to good to be true see the rules above.

And the US Navy has listening and detection grids all over the ocean floor. Tighter grid close in, but you can't fart near any major port without them hearing it... Now that is a job I would hate.

 

[D71]

5 rules -
Never trust the advertising on Amazon for anything unless it is a vendor/brand/type you have researched outside of amazon
Always do your own research, only listen to people you trust/respect and still at least do a little research.
If it is to good to be true it isn't
If it is to good a deal to pass up, it isn't
If it is to good to be true or to good to be true see the rules above.

And the US Navy has listening and detection grids all over the ocean floor. Tighter grid close in, but you can't fart near any major port without them hearing it... Now that is a job I would hate.

“And the US Navy has listening and detection grids all over the ocean floor. Tighter grid close in, but you can't fart near any major port without them hearing it... Now that is a job I would hate.”

I don’t hate to fart but most ppl hate when I do.
Good advice .
As a diy everyone on this forum takes on the responsibility. That is my point…. Caveat Emptor as previous explained.

Edit how many new ppl don’t know their responsibilities by diy

 

[robbob2112]

“And the US Navy has listening and detection grids all over the ocean floor. Tighter grid close in, but you can't fart near any major port without them hearing it... Now that is a job I would hate.”

I don’t hate to fart but most ppl hate when I don’t.
Good advice .
As a diy everyone on this forum takes on the responsibility. That is my point…. Caveat Emptor as previous explained.

One more rule, if the vendor name resembles the sound a stack of tin pans make when you knock it over they may be legit... but be very careful, they may be scamers

 

[Shimmy]

LPG ; Soldering Iron

The LPG could be a messed up auto-correct/translate for LPF.
The soldering iron could have a battery ignitor.

So many fakes out there now though on Amazon and friends that it just doesn't make sense to buy them though.

 

[D71]

First of all, Halon doesn't work by depleting O2, it works by disrupting combustion.

I've specified Halotron before, but then learned the effective concentration is higher than the LD50.
Then I saw Ansul Clean-Guard used in another facility. Effective concentration is well below LD50.
I now have Clean-Guard in my home lab.

Instead of those architecturally attractive NEMA-1 batteries, I suggest a NEMA-3R model and use it as yard sculpture.

The Ansul Clean-Guard is new to me the Ansul is not. Most fires where ansul were used at rail roads was only for fun. Most were heated metals burning paints plastics oil and grease. Most effective was to cool the metal. That ansul made a damn mess that screwed up every locomotive - modules relay whatever it came in contact with. The crews were instructed to stop, shut engine down, pull knife switch for battery. Not tofight fire but they were shown how to do that too.

With aircraft have metal like magnesiums ….. hard to put out. The Airforce put halon on board aircraft Reports onboard fire but plane crashed. Halon system put fires out but killed crew so they crashed. Not sure how they resolved.

Water is an interesting mix if you separate and add to a fire

 

[D71]

This post has a link to what they use.

Post in thread 'EG4LL Fire Suppression Modules' https://diysolarforum.com/threads/eg4ll-fire-suppression-modules.68168/post-861835

If you read that link it says do not touch first canisters as they will be hot after application. Crazy. Chemicals fighting chemicals - heat generated.

 

[robbob2112]

If you read that link it says do not touch first canisters as they will be hot after application. Crazy. Chemicals fighting chemicals - heat generated.

Makes ya wonder how hot they get.

 

[D71]

The LPG could be a messed up auto-correct/translate for LPF.
The soldering iron could have a battery ignitor.

So many fakes out there now though on Amazon and friends that it just doesn't make sense to buy them though.

It is typical in lot of advertising now. Illegal. But typical.

My butane soldering iron has no battery … 80watts power rated. My 3048 emergency system draws ~50-60 watts idling.

Caveat Emptor with everything…. Will Prowse warns ppl all during his videos. There is a reason Will warns ppl so many times…. Legal and he doesn’t want ppl hurt. Ppl need to get that part. He is warning you over and over. OVER.

One of the famous home builders - rebuilders on tv got hauled to court. His defense he was an actor not certified for anything.


A new person buying this for split phase might feel the lie when put into operation. Devil is in details.



I am an old guy. Take what you will. You most likely will never see me telling some one what to do or not do. What you or anyone on here does is on them.

Caveat Emptor.

When post it is usually for everyone ppl are at all levels here. The OP thought he had it down too.