Is the wiring the same for an off grid 230VAC inverter?

[MartyByrde]

Gents, been looking around all day for an answer so I thought best to come to the forum.

I’m looking into running 240v equipment off-grid & outdoors. The new EG4 18k is $$$ so I found the MPP MPI15KW WP ( 15KW 48V) 230VAC. Not only is it cheaper but it allows a higher input voltage.

https://maximumsolar.online/product/1601/

I’m pretty good at figuring this out but hit a road block and need some clarification to point me in the right direction:

Since I’m entirely off-grid…

I’m running 240v machinery, so I don’t need an auto-transformer correct?

The grounding rod is bonded via copper wire to the inverter rather than the panel box?

Would I use a standard US breaker panel box, or do I need do use a European panel?

Paralleling two or more, I would bond each inverter to the same grounding rod via copper wire?

Any insight or personal experience is greatly appreciated!

 

[Steve_S]

North America is 240VAC @ 60Hz frequency Split Phase. EU & Others can range from 220-240 VAC but at 50Hz and SINGLE PHASE.
You cannot mix that up unless you want to see smoke.

Assuming North America: You can run an inverter to an AC panel for distribution. If using a Main Panel with a main breaker then you can feed the 240VCA output to that. A "typical" US Panel with 200A Main breaker is quite common.

Note that for 240V/100A Service you will require a 24,000W Inverter (ecxluding surge handling),

 

[Vigo]

As far as i know, most of the "230v" inverters are selectable for either 220/230/240v and 50 or 60hz. It is FAR more important that you select 60hz to power USA loads, then it is whether you run it 220, 230, or 240v. You don't need an autotransformer to power purely 240v loads.

As far as specifics of grounding and what kind of panel you might run it through.. does this system need to be inspected or conform to any standards?

 

[timselectric]

You don't need an autotransformer to power purely 240v loads.

But you do, if you want it to be a grounded system.
It can be a small autotransformer. Just large enough for fault current.
I will be doing this for part of my system. (The 240v loads panel)

 

[zanydroid]

Probably also need an AT if this is for a 240V load requiring GFCI.

Can one assume that a North American 240V only appliance is valid for use at 240V from ground (IE as in high delta type services)? If so then you might use breakers listed for 240V or MCBs/consumer unit for 230V markets. Since you are anyway ignoring NEC compliance by using 230V inverter so why not go all the way.

 

[DIYrich]

Some 240v appliances assume 240 split phase to power things like circuit boards with 120v. If it has a white neutral line, you probably need split phase.

 

[zanydroid]

You cannot mix that up unless you want to see smoke.

Mixing 60hz single phase is fine. But you need to be a lot smarter about it because the right kinds of transformers and neutral handling need to be sprinkled in strategically.

In fact even if you had multiple proper 120/240 systems you need to be careful about separating non synchronized 60hz systems. A dunce exclusively using 120/240 60hz hardware wrong (IE literally only using YouTube as a source without supplementation) can easily burn down way more stuff than a savant using a combination of 50hz, 60hz, single phase, 3 phase, 120/208, 120/240, 240, whatever, in the same house.

 

[MartyByrde]

North America is 240VAC @ 60Hz frequency Split Phase. EU & Others can range from 220-240 VAC but at 50Hz and SINGLE PHASE.
You cannot mix that up unless you want to see smoke.

Assuming North America: You can run an inverter to an AC panel for distribution. If using a Main Panel with a main breaker then you can feed the 240VCA output to that. A "typical" US Panel with 200A Main breaker is quite common.

Note that for 240V/100A Service you will require a 24,000W Inverter (ecxluding surge handling),

Thanks for the reply! Would you be able to clarify this last part, “Note that for 240V/100A Service you will require a 24,000W Inverter (ecxluding surge handling),”

 

[MartyByrde]

As far as i know, most of the "230v" inverters are selectable for either 220/230/240v and 50 or 60hz. It is FAR more important that you select 60hz to power USA loads, then it is whether you run it 220, 230, or 240v. You don't need an autotransformer to power purely 240v loads.

As far as specifics of grounding and what kind of panel you might run it through.. does this system need to be inspected or conform to any standards?

Got it. It’s in the desert so no standards

 

[MartyByrde]

But you do, if you want it to be a grounded system.
It can be a small autotransformer. Just large enough for fault current.
I will be doing this for part of my system. (The 240v loads panel)

Thanks for clarifying. Is there a size you’d feel comfortable with for a 15k inverter?

 

[MartyByrde]

So it sounds like

Mixing 60hz single phase is fine. But you need to be a lot smarter about it because the right kinds of transformers and neutral handling need to be sprinkled in strategically.

In fact even if you had multiple proper 120/240 systems you need to be careful about separating non synchronized 60hz systems. A dunce exclusively using 120/240 60hz hardware wrong (IE literally only using YouTube as a source without supplementation) can easily burn down way more stuff than a savant using a combination of 50hz, 60hz, single phase, 3 phase, 120/208, 120/240, 240, whatever, in the same house.

So it sounds like 50hz is the safest option

 

[zanydroid]

So it sounds like

So it sounds like 50hz is the safest option

I can sort of see how you can extrapolate that from my text but that's not a correct conclusion. What I meant was 60hz matching is not a sufficient guarantee of working

60hz out of sync is bad

50hz into any kind of inductive motor load in a 60hz market is bad because motor performance is electromechanically joined at the hip with voltage and frequency

50hz into something with a power supply that regulates it to DC is probably fine, but why deviate from 60hz if there is some edge case that bites you or a common case you don't understand... When in Rome...

 

[1201]

When I click the link it says it's a 3 phase inverter?

 

[timselectric]

Thanks for clarifying. Is there a size you’d feel comfortable with for a 15k inverter?

Actually, the unit you linked is 3-phase 400v/230v.
The only way to get split-phase from that safely, is with a 3-phase isolation transformer.
And to use it efficiently, you'll need to balance the loads across the 3 phases.

 

[MartyByrde]

I can sort of see how you can extrapolate that from my text but that's not a correct conclusion. What I meant was 60hz matching is not a sufficient guarantee of working

60hz out of sync is bad

50hz into any kind of inductive motor load in a 60hz market is bad because motor performance is electromechanically joined at the hip with voltage and frequency

50hz into something with a power supply that regulates it to DC is probably fine, but why deviate from 60hz if there is some edge case that bites you or a common case you don't understand... When in Rome...

I’m a bit confused and will need to educate myself on Hz further.
For context, the equipment I am running has some flexibility in the listed specs:

Power Supply
Power Supply AC input Voltage, Volt(1-1)	200~240
Power Supply AC Input Frequency Range,Hz	47~63
Power Supply AC Input Current, Amp(1-2)	20(1-3)

 

[MartyByrde]

Actually, the unit you linked is 3-phase 400v/230v.
The only way to get split-phase from that safely, is with a 3-phase isolation transformer.
And to use it efficiently, you'll need to balance the loads across the 3 phases.

Okay, so this isn’t as simple as connecting to a panel box.
Would you use an autotransformer for this 8k?

https://maximumsolar.online/product/8048wpt/

 

[MartyByrde]

Regarding my initial questions:

The grounding rod is bonded via copper wire to the inverter rather than the panel box?

Anyone comfortable sharing experience with this?

Would I use a standard US breaker panel box, or do I need do use a European panel?

 

[MartyByrde]

A dunce exclusively using 120/240 60hz hardware wrong (IE literally only using YouTube as a source without supplementation)

Do you have a supplementation you advise studying?

 

[cs1234]

But you do, if you want it to be a grounded system.
It can be a small autotransformer. Just large enough for fault current.
I will be doing this for part of my system. (The 240v loads panel)

I'm so clueless on this. Completely clueless.

If it's a 240v appliance (only needing 3 wires including ground, so it only uses 240v) and has a ground wire hook up in it, can't it just use the same ground as the rest of the building regardless of what that buildings electrical system is? Do you need separate system ground points for different AC voltages/phases?

You can't just run the ground *only* from the 240v single phase 60hz inverter to your main panels ground (or the rod itself), and run 3 cables from the inverters output to the appliance being powered only by the 240v inverter? I understand you wouldn't want to mix the 240v single phase inverter output into the rest of your normal split phase system, I assumed that only applied to the regular hot/neutral wires and not to ground.

What is this autotransformer you are talking about transforming and how would it be hooked up? Is it because of the neutral/ground bond in the main panel? Are we trying to eliminate 240v single phase inverter output traveling back into the main split phase system on the neutral / ground bonding?

 

[timselectric]

Okay, so this isn’t as simple as connecting to a panel box.
Would you use an autotransformer for this 8k?

https://maximumsolar.online/product/8048wpt/

Yes