MPP solar LV2424 vs Magnum msh4024re vs Victron Multiplus/Quattro

[Jcain]

Goal, 75% self sufficient.

Current situation:
50amp shore power
5500watt Onan genset
Factory ATS switch with auto genstart
3 rooftop ac units
4 138ah valance 12v Batts

I'm 90% of the time hooked to 50amp shore power. With that being said, a $340 power bill each month sucks too.

Am I better off go cheap and eating the power bill and having some solar with supplemental Genset power when I choose to boondock. Or is this hobby the classic, you get what you pay for?

I could buy 4 (2p 2split) of the all in one units and still be ahead damn near in every facet.

Solar panels are whatever I end up needing.

Budget is dependant on ROI.



• MPP solar LV2424
$660
2400w output
24v DC input
60amp charger
Split phase capable
Stackable
Would have to leave my factory ATS unit for genset

• Magnum msh4024re
$1750
4000w output
24v DC input
110amp charging
Split phase capable
Stackable
Shore+Genset AC input

• Victron multiplus 12/3000
$1250
12v DC input (24v model available)
2400 watt
120amp charger
Split phase capable
Stackable
Would have to leave my factory ATS unit for genset

• Victron Quattro 12/5000
$2800
12v DC input (24v model available)
4000watts
200amp charger
Split phase capable
Stackable
Shore+Genset ac inputs

 

[Jcain]

Anyone have input or suggestions?

 

[Justin Laureltec]

@Jcain, the Magnum and both Victrons are excellent devices. For your application, I think going heavy on the PV panels, paired with a good Victron MPPT (yes, it costs more, but that's because it's better) and a Quattro if you really need the dual 50A transfer switches will be super expensive to start with, but frankly if you're paying $340 a month for your power right now, everything together will pay for itself in less than two years.

All these devices are 100% "you get what you pay for". Sure, you can get a cheap chinese MPPT for $50 (or probably less), but you have no idea how reliable it's going to be or -maybe more importantly- how much of your potential solar harvest is going to be lost through the inefficiency of the controller itself. Then, too, you have to consider the device self-consumption and a bunch of other details like that... same goes for inverter/chargers. To make the most use of the power you're harvesting from your panels and putting into your batteries, you want a highly-efficient inverter that has low self-consumption... and that's Victron all day.
Personally, depending on your loads and all that, I'd recommend a MultiPlus over the Quattro because quite frankly you can get two Multi's and parallel them and have more available inverted wattage for slightly less than a single Quattro. (Given that I work for a distributor, you'd think I'd try to sell you the most expensive things possible, but that's not how we do business here). Okay, yes, the dual transfer switch in the Quattro is pretty awesome... but is it that awesome? Only you can really decide that.
In re to panels, I strongly advise going with a good manufacturer. I can personally vouch for the reliability and customer service of SunPower and Windy Nation panels; I've heard a lot of good things about the QCells that are floating around Facebook and such these days but I've never personally tested them so I can't speak to them. I strongly advise against Renogy panels... or anything else Renogy, for that matter, and this is also from personal experience. The reason for this is that Renogy is a branding company only; they buy up warehouses of components and slap their name on them and sell them as theirs, and although sometimes you'll get a great-performing component, a lot of times you won't, and the reality is there's simply no way of knowing until it's too late. It's a crap-shoot, and I do not ever condone gambling with high voltage components... and in fact we have a Renogy PV panel hung up here in the office with a big hole that it burned into one of its own cells as a prime example of why to never buy them.

So, to recap, my personal advice is:
1 MultiPlus or even 2 in parallel depending on your needs and/or budget
1 large SmartSolar MPPT like a 150/100 or two smaller ones like the 100/50... two smaller ones would allow you to run differently-oriented chains of PV and thus maintain optimal charge efficiency throughout the day... but for the size of your battery bank, you're going to want to throw as close to 100A of charge at it as you can either way
A BMV-712 battery monitor so you can actually see what your batteries are doing
A bunch of good PV panels. To run two 100/50s at optimal output, you'd ideally have around 650w of PV going into each controller; quite frankly you could easily put in more as long as you properly parallel/series connect them, but too much more and you start generating more than the controller can handle and it starts wasting power, so that's kinda pointless.
Obviously a bunch of small odds and ends of fuses and breakers and such

Understood that this may not be feasible now, and maybe not feasible at all... that's all up to you. Something to aim for though. Keep in mind, too, that sure you can go the cheap way and just throw a bunch of off brand chinese components up there and call it good... but in the end, that'll just be wasted money because those are going to 1. waste a lot of your potential harvest through inefficiency, and 2. fail sooner rather than later, and then good luck making good on their warranties, such as they may be. If you take your time and build a system properly with proper components, the components themselves will not only last longer and perform better, but also -if anything does go wrong with them- you'll be dealing with a reputable company and its reputable distributors for technical support, troubleshooting, and warranty claims.

...just my two cents.

 

[Jcain]

Thank you for you input, justin!

I actually just got my bmv 712 installed today!

 

[Justin Laureltec]

Ha, good for you! They're fantastic devices once properly configured. Definitely -since this is the single most frequent call I get with reports of the device "not functioning properly"- make sure that you correctly connect the shunt, that is, with the "battery" side of the shunt being the ONLY thing connected to your battery NEG, and ALL other system NEGs including loads, chassis grounds, and all charge sources, being connected to the "loads and chargers" side of the shunt. Then, of course, also make sure that you correctly set your battery Ah capacity in the BMV and, for your lithium bank, set the charge efficiency to 99% and the Peukert exponent to 1.05%. I should note that those are LiFePO4 values but don't necessarily reflect the Valence performance, as Valence cells are not supported by Victron and therefore don't have established values in their monitoring system... in reality, depending on the lives of your Valence cells before you acquired them, it's possible that the charge efficiency should be a bit lower and possibly the Peukert exponent should be a bit higher... all depends, really, but that's a place to start at least.

 

[Jcain]

Thank you again, Justin.

I read the manual (??) and nailed those settings asap.

It's hard to think people connect the shunt wrong...?!?!. I guess being a lineman has me checking connections more than once and never assuming.

My valence batteries had a good life, 16, 23, 37 and 69 for cycle counts.

 

[Justin Laureltec]

Man, you have no idea the ways I've seen people connect these shunts It used to be hard for me to believe... now, nothing surprises me

 

[Jcain]

Ha. Go figure.

Thanks for the info.

Good doing business with you. ?

 

[offgriddle]

Ha, good for you! They're fantastic devices once properly configured. Definitely -since this is the single most frequent call I get with reports of the device "not functioning properly"- make sure that you correctly connect the shunt, that is, with the "battery" side of the shunt being the ONLY thing connected to your battery NEG, and ALL other system NEGs including loads, chassis grounds, and all charge sources, being connected to the "loads and chargers" side of the shunt. Then, of course, also make sure that you correctly set your battery Ah capacity in the BMV and, for your lithium bank, set the charge efficiency to 99% and the Peukert exponent to 1.05%. I should note that those are LiFePO4 values but don't necessarily reflect the Valence performance, as Valence cells are not supported by Victron and therefore don't have established values in their monitoring system... in reality, depending on the lives of your Valence cells before you acquired them, it's possible that the charge efficiency should be a bit lower and possibly the Peukert exponent should be a bit higher... all depends, really, but that's a place to start at least.

Holy cow Justin, untill this very moment, I've never even heard of peukert's law, (some call it a theory), either way, thanks for sharing! https://www.batterystuff.com/kb/tools/peukert-s-law-a-nerds-attempt-to-explain-battery-capacity.html

 

[offgriddle]

Goal, 75% self sufficient.

Current situation:
50amp shore power
5500watt Onan genset
Factory ATS switch with auto genstart
3 rooftop ac units
4 138ah valance 12v Batts

I'm 90% of the time hooked to 50amp shore power. With that being said, a $340 power bill each month sucks too.

Am I better off go cheap and eating the power bill and having some solar with supplemental Genset power when I choose to boondock. Or is this hobby the classic, you get what you pay for?

I could buy 4 (2p 2split) of the all in one units and still be ahead damn near in every facet.

Solar panels are whatever I end up needing.

Budget is dependant on ROI.



• MPP solar LV2424
$660
2400w output
24v DC input
60amp charger
Split phase capable
Stackable
Would have to leave my factory ATS unit for genset

• Magnum msh4024re
$1750
4000w output
24v DC input
110amp charging
Split phase capable
Stackable
Shore+Genset AC input

• Victron multiplus 12/3000
$1250
12v DC input (24v model available)
2400 watt
120amp charger
Split phase capable
Stackable
Would have to leave my factory ATS unit for genset

• Victron Quattro 12/5000
$2800
12v DC input (24v model available)
4000watts
200amp charger
Split phase capable
Stackable
Shore+Genset ac inputs

You have about $4000 a year to work with in regards to break even, so $20,000 spent on replacing the grid is about a five year payback not including fuel and upkeep.

 

[Justin Laureltec]

Holy cow Justin, untill this very moment, I've never even heard of peukert's law, (some call it a theory), either way, thanks for sharing! https://www.batterystuff.com/kb/tools/peukert-s-law-a-nerds-attempt-to-explain-battery-capacity.html

Hahaha well the great thing is that Victron knows about it for you ?