Off grid is getting cheaper every day.

[Stewfish]

I really appreciate this forum and help from everyone for my noob questions.

Many people make batteries for a hobby. I was told I shouldn't be doing this as a hobby bc I was worried about spending $5k on batteries from Alibaba. What if they were not legit? I questioned the legitimacy of alibaba batteries and who had verified them, to narrow down the good suppliers vs a thief selling grade B or C as grade A. Will Prowse has proved there are many frauds.

Many people are not doing this as a hobby:
Many people are fully off grid and want reliable electrical that simulates being on grid now that battery prices allow for it. Some may ask why, because they live in a house or an apartment and just want power during hurricanes or fires. Many other people don't believe in a "sticks and bricks lifestyle" compared to others where that is all they know. Many people own houses or cabins in areas of the nation that don't have power. For example many AK, AZ, OR, ID, NV, ME, NH, forests and deserts, etc don't have power lines.

As PV grows more people will not tie into the grid bc prices are going down and batteries can run AC or heaters all night. Our property is 30 miles from a decently sized city with 250k+ people. 40 miles from Portland OR are many areas with no power in Mt Hood. Its a fact of life more people like me will be researching how to do PV off grid as a necessity vs a hobby.

Power companies want a lot of money to go on grid for new homes, unless you are in a "Mcmansion" or "McNeighborhood" with a 10 ft wide yard. For a few miles into an area onto your property from the nearest power lines can easily be $60k, as with my bid, a friend was $40k. Then add on a $35 monthly fee connection if the house is empty while you are not on your property. Then add on rates that keep increasing esp if your local grid runs of any type of fuel. Grid tie system also give you a credit that in OR they wipe clear every year so you will never get paid back or see that credit unless you have the PV system off. We were once house poor and had $800 monthly utility bills. We sold that house that I built. I have been able to retire at 40 and get that monthly bill down to $150 a month running a generator full time in our new efficient house.

Please bare with us as different people than you, while we ask questions or have plans different than you. Thanks to everyone who has really helped me finalize my plan/design.

 

[Jim Burrow]

I really appreciate this forum and help from everyone for my noob questions.

Many people make batteries for a hobby. I was told I shouldn't be doing this as a hobby bc I was worried about spending $5k on batteries from Alibaba. What if they were not legit? I questioned the legitimacy of alibaba batteries and who had verified them, to narrow down the good suppliers vs a thief selling grade B or C as grade A. Will Prowse has proved their are many frauds.

Many people are not doing this as a hobby:
Many people are fully off grid and want reliable electrical that simulates being on grid now that battery prices allow for it. Some may ask why, because they live in a house or an apartment and just want power during hurricanes or fires. Many other people don't believe in a "sticks and bricks lifestyle" compared to others where that is all they know. Many people own houses or cabins in areas of the nation that don't have power. For example many AK, AZ, OR, ID, NV, ME, NH, forests and deserts, etc don't have power lines.

As PV grows more people will not tie into the grid bc prices are going down and batteries can run AC or heaters all night. Our property is 30 miles from a decently sized city with 250k+ people. 40 miles from Portland OR are many areas with no power in Mt Hood. Its a fact of life more people like me will be researching how to do PV off grid as a necessity vs a hobby.

Power companies want a lot of money to go on grid for new homes, unless you are in a "Mcmansion" or "McNeighborhood" with a 10 ft wide yard. For a few miles into an area onto your property from the nearest power lines can easily be $60k, as with my bid, a friend was $40k. Then add on a $35 monthly fee connection if the house is empty while you are not on your property. Then add on rates that keep increasing esp if your local grid runs of any type of fuel. Grid tie system also give you a credit that in OR they wipe clear every year so you will never get paid back or see that credit unless you have the PV system off. We were once house poor and had $800 monthly utility bills. We sold that house that I built. I have been able to retire at 40 and get that monthly bill down to $150 a month running a generator full time in our new efficient house.

Please bare with us as different people than you, while we ask questions or have plans different than you. Thanks to everyone who has really helped me finalize my plan/design.

Love what you just said. 4 months ago I started looking into solar as where I live the Utility company is having power blackouts due to winds and fire. I only live 30 miles East of San Franciso and in no danger of any fire, but they shut off our power anyway.

Anyhow, I too being a newbie with respect to Solar, although a retired Electronic Engineer, had and still do have questions and to my understanding, this is what the forum is all about. It's for us guys with beginner questions and gets a broad response to our question.

From what I've seen, there are very few guys/gals in this forum that get upset with newbie questions. And I for once really appreciate everyone for taking their time to answer our question and not call us stupid.

If they are in this forum, they too were once newbies and had what they now consider stupid questions. Again I'm just referring to the very, very small group of guys that get annoyed with us. - so keep up with your questions and we all grow in our Solar adventure.

 

[Stewfish]

Love what you just said. 4 months ago I started looking into solar as where I live the Utility company is having power blackouts due to winds and fire. I only live 30 miles East of San Franciso and in no danger of any fire, but they shut off our power anyway.

Anyhow, I too being a newbie with respect to Solar, although a retired Electronic Engineer, had and still do have questions and to my understanding, this is what the forum is all about. It's for us guys with beginner questions and gets a broad response to our question.

From what I've seen, there are very few guys/gals in this forum that get upset with newbie questions. And I for once really appreciate everyone for taking their time to answer our question and not call us stupid.

If they are in this forum, they too were once newbies and had what they now consider stupid questions. Again I'm just referring to the very, very small group of guys that get annoyed with us. - so keep up with your questions and we all grow in our Solar adventure.

I just put in for a bid for 40 cells. Go big or go live in the city with power wires, with the rip off crew (good old boys club) power companies that lobby state representatives to screw the little guy

 

[Ampster]

Many people are not doing this as a hobby:

I have on ocassion called this a hobby. I am a retired financial executive and have used sophisticated financial models for decision making. However at this point in my life my goals are not growth of capital but rather rewarding activities and efficient expenditures. I also live in California with high rates for energy and more frequent power outages. To me this is a serious hobby which combines my thirst for knowledge with my love of challenges. It also keeps the lights on when the neigborhood is dark. That results in increased WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor).

 

[JoeHam]

I have on ocassion called this a hobby. I am a retired financial executive and have used sophisticated financial models for decision making. However at this point in my life my goals are not growth of capital but rather rewarding activities and efficient expenditures. I also live in California with high rates for energy and more frequent power outages. To me this is a serious hobby which combines my thirst for knowledge with my love of challenges. It also keeps the lights on when the neigborhood is dark. That results in increased WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor).

And the one thing that doesn’t show up in the financial models:

INDEPENDENCE

As the old TV commercial says, “Priceless”

 

[HRTKD]

Please bare with us...

Nope. I'm keeping my clothes on. But what you do in the privacy of your own home is up to you.

This is a hobby for me at this point. Just ask my wife. If I do it, and it costs money and I appear to have fun with it, it's a hobby.

 

[Stewfish]

Its a cool hobby and very useful esp after all the outages in CA etc.

Some people just seem to not understand we need bigger stuff and bigger batteries and that costs tons of money. I think its not a hobby as much as building a house is a hobby. That's why we ask if anyone has done tests on the cells to verify they are legit before we order 40 cells. I don't have time to be building 4s at a time and test them out. I just don't want to get screwed with 40 junky cells. You could say well buy prebuilt batteries then. Well living off a generator full time at $150 a month in gas, is way cheaper than buying 28kwh of battle borns, its just not feasible vs a generator. Spending 3k on 28kwh is doable.

 

[Newenough]

My wife and I made the transition to off grid life 7 years ago. Built my own house. Did everything, framing, plumbing, electrical, and solar. Was one of those McMansion owners for many years. Suffered hurricane ike in Ohio, and we decided to be as independent of the system as we could, be cause it failed is and millions of others. I knew little to nothing, bit part of the plan was education.

Now, my son (26yo), his wife and the 2 grandkids are now taking our example. He's building his own house on the property, mortgage free, no power bills, or water bills,. Wish I had his wisdom when I was his age.

Upgraded the solar recently to allow for his family too. Now at 40x250w panels, and 40kw of lifepo4.

 

[Stewfish]

My wife and I made the transition to off grid life 7 years ago. Built my own house. Did everything, framing, plumbing, electrical, and solar. Was one of those McMansion owners for many years. Suffered hurricane ike in Ohio, and we decided to be as independent of the system as we could, be cause it failed is and millions of others. I knew little to nothing, bit part of the plan was education.

Now, my son (26yo), his wife and the 2 grandkids are now taking our example. He's building his own house on the property, mortgage free, no power bills, or water bills,. Wish I had his wisdom when I was his age.

Upgraded the solar recently to allow for his family too. Now at 40x250w panels, and 40kw of lifepo4.

Can you show me your setup. Any pics? I'm wondering about BMSs currently. I was thinking about 30 of the same panels and 28kwh to start

 

[Newenough]

Sure. I get some up tomorrow.

 

[Newenough]

Thought I got the pics up...sorry. Here are a few. I have since added the other 5 BYD packs to the top rack, 15 in all. Cleaning up the wiring and fuse placement still. Replaced the front Molex on each pack with a JST-XH 8s connector. Plugged in a cell meter on each which will be secured to the front panel. The solar panels are mounted on converted 14 foot vertical pallet rack uprights. Laid them horizontal, and used the racking bars as the vertical support mounts, concreted into the ground 24 inches, with 3 position adjustable tilt angles. They continue beyond the tree line. Crappy phone cam makes it look longer than it really is.

 

[Newenough]

Forklift batteries also have plenty of downsides. I know this because I replaced my 24v forklift battery after 3 years with the current lifepo4 setup. The battery was still serviceable but to much work and expense to maintain, as you will see below, and not enough usable power given the cost.

High self discharge rate (2-3% daily)

DOD should be limited to 75%. These batteries where designed to be charged with constant current for a given period of time, usually 7-8 hours between work shifts, as the charge rate is only 5-7% of capacity at steady amps. Conditions difficult to replicate on solar alone, especially once a month when equilizing.

Due to internal resistance it takes as long to charge the last 20% as it did the first 80% of the battery. Ensure you get a full charge often or sulfication of the plates will be the result.

Kinda like Christmas lights, if one goes out they all go out. Replacing a bad cell is very difficult. You need a special bit to properly drill out the terminals on the cell, and as these cells are packed very tightly, not easily remove. Even then, cell mismatch is the result.

As you already mentioned, water often especially after equalization as the plates are very close to the tops of the cells. Keep a good supply of distilled water on hand.

My recommendation is you go with a high quality battery designed for renewable. They have a higher charge rate at 10-20%, and more manageable in weight and servicing when needed.

 

[Hedges]

Don't know what to call my solar proclivity. It saves us in excess of 5K a year in power bills but its something i play with rather set and forget. If they take away my analouge meter next year I might well got to battery...reluctantly.

Do you get net-metering now but that might go away?
My previous mechanical meter would spin backwards. When my grid-tie PV was approved the utility installed a digital meter supporting net-metering and time of use.

Utility bill credits can store power for 6 months, to be used in winter.
For storing power one day or so, thermal storage and pumping of well water to a tank might cover major loads.
Do you need much electricity overnight, or during a couple days of little sun?

I have battery barely sufficient for one night, but then it is only backup during grid failure.

 

[Ampster]

At this stage, there is no reason to suggest they will become cheaper other than with sub standard knockoffs.

My assumption is that forklift batteries will become cheaper as they are replaced by LFP batteries. Manufacturing capacity has been increasing rapidly for all Lithium chemistries. That suggests there will continue to be low cost cells entering the market.

 

[Hedges]

One possibility is that cheap lithium cells today are just the rejects which weren't acceptable for good product; better to sell than scrap.
The other is continued cost reduction with increasing scale. If bad cells can be made cheap, good doesn't have to cost more.

15 years ago I guessed wrong about the direction PV was headed. I knew it couldn't follow the price/performance curve of electronics because it doesn't benefit from shrinking geometry. I also understood a significant fraction of cost was energy input (but of course electricity for a factory next to a hydro or coal plant is cheap). Panels were $6/watt then, $0.30/watt today.

When I compared retail AGM to lithium not long ago, $/kWh of life were similar. Lithium you pay up front for more life. AGM $/kWh of life is pretty flat from 10% DoD to 80% DoD. So I figured a small AGM bank worn out quicker was the way to go. In a few years, check updated lithium battery prices.

Today cheap LiFePO4 cells for DIY can build a battery as cheap or cheaper than AGM for same capacity. If they do give 3500 deep cycles then much cheaper per kWh. For my grid-backup system not expected to cycle 350 times in a decade, no difference. Off grid and sized for 3 days without sun, lifespan and cost may be equal. But for off-grid and a battery sized for 24 hours or one night's consumption DIY lithium comes out ahead.

 

[Hedges]

Back in 2003, time of use was optional but peak hours Noon-6:00 PM meant I could be a net producer at high rates, get back on average 1.5:1 throughout the week.
Now, peak is 4:00 to 9:00 PM (maybe somewhat different for some tariffs) and is mandatory. Only way to avoid paying extra is either very low consumption during those hours or dump in excess PV power off-peak.

Because PV is considerably cheaper than batteries, I'm adding PV watts and changing orientation to stuff the grid with extra kWh during off-peak hours.

Radiator in return air to furnace - thinking about that because ductwork simple, but concerned about higher temperature air going over electronic devices.
My furnace in the basement (forced exhaust) has A/C condenser after it. I inserted an electric duct heater there to burn off surplus credits on electric bill.
If I can shove the ductwork over a few more inches I could add a radiator for heating with a stored water tank. That would let me have heat during the 4:00 to 9:00 PM $0.45/kW period, and the 3:00 to 4:00 PM and 9:00 PM to Midnight $0.30/kW period, using electricity from the other $0.15/kWh times.
My original circa 2003 installation cost $0.20/kWh amortized up to now. Replacing panels and inverters for 50% more output is about $0.025/kWh.

Would you take waste heat from the generators to heat the water tank? CHP.
If you used the tank as sole source of heat, I assume you won't have enough waste oil unless that comes from other facilities.
There used to be a biodiesel and grease-car movement here, but waste fryer oil is now feedstock for commercial biodiesel, no longer free and available.
Truckinbear has tallied diesel generator purchase and maintenance at around $1/kWh. Heat may be 100% to 200% of electric output.

My night time drain is around 13 kWh if yard lights shut off but multiple refrigerators/freezers left on. That should be cut in half if I send an "off grid" signal to relays and cut their power at night.

 

[Newenough]

All things considered lead acid too has it market and production cost issues. Mainly being lead is no longer smelted/refined in the US, but primarily countries we have tenuous relationships with (china...). I personally also do not expect lifepo4 or even PV to get cheaper, only that it has already hit a cost point to make such a purchase reasonable for many. As compared to a new 1000ah fork battery, of which 50% at most is usable, for $1500 less I got 2200ah (70% usable), can charge in one day of sun, and requires no maintenance. Yes, it has its strict requirements, but I have sound understanding based on experience. This is my second set of lifepo4, as after the fork battery, I installed a 300ah lifepo4 setup to learn from. Ran great for 2 years as I learned, then sold it to a friend. Only then did I invest in the system I have now. There is a learning curve to all batteries. Burned through enough lead acid golf cart batteriies in the early days...ugh.

Lifepo4 is a proven technology, if done well. A bad company that makes bad batteries is a bad situation to be in, and cannot be determanative of a bad technology. Plenty of post on here to show that bad companies knowingly make bad batteries and sell them internationally, knowing you have little recourse. Yetany of these same people say they wouldn't buy anything of craigslist? Battleborn however, warranties there product for what...10 years? That's pretty risky if the product was still considered "unproven". Are they expensive? Hell yes. But they are a trusted solution, especially for those without the aquired knowledge of DIYing there own system. Success is still never guaranteed in any setup, but unless you have been-there-done-that and either succeeded or failed, nothing was either learned or achieved. This site and our participation in it is testament to understanding the situations we find ourselves in and hopefully succeed by shared knowledge, rather than failing from ones singular ignorance.

 

[TRW]

I have a few things that might be interesting. I am part of a Rural Electric Cooperative, they charge me about $35 a month for service. I have no problem with that, but it adds up during the year. They are talking about offering a power price break if a person is willing to charge batteries at night and use the peak power system that Hedges talked about. ( Time of Use rates). They will be forced into this as they are shutting down coal plants at an alarming rate. The way I see it, a solar array is self defense, there simply will not be enough generation facilities to supply the need in a few short years. California is there already.

Imaging when you are buying gas for your car next time, that soon we will need to generate electricity to replace those billions of gallons of gas and diesel, this is going to be a big problem.

 

[Ampster]

I can get fork batteries far cheaper than i can get lipo so i think like everything else, it depends on ones particular situation.

Yes, you are correct, it all depends on where you are standing. Your assumptions are based on the fact that you can get fork lift batteries for less than you can get LFP. I have have eight years experience with various LFP batteries and I can buy them for close to $100 per kWh. Therefore I am going to reach a different conclusion than you are. It sounds like you have the best system for your circumstances.
If you are looking for agreement with your assumptions, there are a lot of off grid people using Lead Acid batteries on several other forums that may be helpful for any issue that you may be having. I am on grid and want to use LFP batteries to reduce my bill as far as I can at the same time charge my EVs as cheaply as possible.
I am also not concerned with any issues with how Lithium is mined and LFP batteries contain very little Nickel or Cobalt so the issues that you raised do not concern me.

 

[HRTKD]

I would question the no maintenance suggestion with lipo. From what i have seen the maintenance is constant only done with a bms which most people seem to watch like hawks.

Nope. I rarely look at the BMS. I take a quick look at the display (on the side of the cabinet) for the BMV-712, and that's good enough. "Most people" with LiFePO4 batteries have no clue there is even a BMS.