SDGE NEM 1.0 Upgrade: More solar, battery storage, heat pump?

[soylentgreen]

I'm in SDGE and have a 5KW Solar grid tie system on NEM 1.0.

Over the years, my electricity consumption has gone up, as I've changed or added:
- ICE car -> EV
- gas water heater -> heat pump water heater
- gas furnace -> heat pump
- new spa/hot tub (~ 200kWH/month)

I'm now using about 200kWh / month more than I generate with solar, which costs about $100/month (averaged over the year). I'm on the normal DR-SES plan, and under NEM 1.0 I get 100% credit for kWh I feed to the grid with a yearly true-up.

I feel good about not burning so much fossil fuels, but I miss the $0 energy bills.

Ideas about what I could do:
* Add more solar panels (about 1500W would do it). I'm guessing this would cost $5k. This would be my first choice, but if I add more than 500W (10%), I think I would lose NEM1.0 and have to move to NEM 3. Is that true?
* Switch to EV-TOU5 (which has a $16/month fee, but gives super off peak rates of under $0.15/kWH). Schedule electricity use to fall within cheap TOU hours.
* Switch to EV-TOU5, and build my own battery storage system, and do time-shifting arbitrage. I would probably use Victron inverter/charger (since I already have Victron kit) and 48V rack batteries. For about $6k I should be able to get a 10kWH system which should sufice. I would build this myself, and would not apply for rebates. My understanding is that I could legally do this without approval or permits. (true?)
* Pay a professional to install a battery backup system, probably replacing my grid-tie solar inverter with a hybrid inverter. This would cost more, and require permitting, but might quality for rebates etc.
* Get a heat pump for the Spa - a RayPak Crosswind 30I would cut my heat pump use by about 75%, and cost under $2000. It could be better than that: My current spa is 120V and only heats at 1KW (about 1F/hour), meaning I leave it hot all the time. The RayPak could heat 5x faster (raising the temperature about 5F/hour). So, I could leave the spa at 90F (reducing heat loss) and only heat it up on nights I plan to use it.
* do nothing! Paying $100/month for a pure electirc household is pretty cheap, and given the uncertainty of SDGE / NEM rules, I should just grin and bear it.

What would you recommend?

 

[time2roll]

Combination of heat pump for the spa and live with the remaining electric cost gets my vote. With planning the spa heat could be off-off for a few days at a time and still get to 100 in 6-8 hours.
Lower average temperature in the spa should also require fewer chemicals.

 

[soylentgreen]

That's a good answer, as it would give me a project to do (you can tell I want to DIY because I'm here on DIYsolarForums, righ?)

I checked my usage #s again, and turns out the Spa is using more like 150kWh/month, and my use (above solar) is more like 300kWh/month. So even if I zeroed out the hot tub, I'd still be net negative, though with a much smaller bill.

Something about the DIY battery backup system is appealing to me - I think I like the idea of being able to time-shift multiple loads (spa, water heater, EV charging...)

 

[Solar Guppy]

That's a good answer, as it would give me a project to do (you can tell I want to DIY because I'm here on DIYsolarForums, righ?)

I checked my usage #s again, and turns out the Spa is using more like 150kWh/month, and my use (above solar) is more like 300kWh/month. So even if I zeroed out the hot tub, I'd still be net negative, though with a much smaller bill.

Something about the DIY battery backup system is appealing to me - I think I like the idea of being able to time-shift multiple loads (spa, water heater, EV charging...)

Anything you do will need permits, CA grid connected isn't a DYI option for most. If you have the skills for codes, generating permit packages, dealing with the local inspectors then it may be a possibility.

 

[400bird]

Anything you do will need permits, CA grid connected isn't a DYI option for most. If you have the skills for codes, generating permit packages, dealing with the local inspectors then it may be a possibility.

I'd disagree with most of that (other than the needing skills part and everything after?). In all of the country, work needs to be done up to code. Most cities require inspections to ensure this is done.. There are power companies in other states that that just straight don't allow solar, so you're forced into an "illegal" off-grid system. You can install an "illegal off-grid system in California just the same as everywhere else.

I'm in California, and permitted/installed a grid tie install and later permitted and installed a diy battery and inverter. Writing the permits was the hardest part, but you can pay people to write permit packages. Doing the work up to code should be standard practice, when permits are involved it will be enforced anywhere you live.

 

[zanydroid]

(California experience)

Code and permit package can be outsourced, heck several manufacturers will gladly take your money to make the package for you (I know at least one of Unirack/IronRidge will drive the CAD software for you).

As for dealing with local inspectors, I ended up having to do 75% of that on the fly a couple months ago because my solar contractor kept dropping the ball. That's a combination of social and technical skills, if you're into DIY with permits you probably already have half the knowledge or are acquiring knowledge that will be useful later.

IMO the hard part is the physical labor and learning the theory well enough to spec the system / guide the outsourced drafter that you hire. Those are constants across any solar project, whether or not you go for permitting.

 

[soylentgreen]

Anything you do will need permits,

In all cases?

One of the options I'm thinking of is basically a big UPS: some victron kit, a couple of batteries, and I'd plug a few loads (hot tub, fridge, server rack) into it, and program it to time-shift (charge batteries from 0 to 6am, discharge rest of the day).

I belive that if all my kit is plugged in to NEMA 15 a sockets, I do not need permits.

For example, I can go to Best Buy tonight and buy a UPS, and I'm sure I don't need permits for that if I decide to plug in my TV and TiVo into it, right?

What is the "you defnitely need a permit" line in California?

 

[zanydroid]

California has adopted IBC, which requires an ESS to be UL9540 listed. With an exception for batteries repurposed from EVs. If you stack up 10kWh of batteries for time shifting, it's kind of hard to say that's NOT an ESS...

I don't believe any of the federal incentives cares about your permit status, only stuff like "placed in service in tax year X". The rest is between you, your AHJ, and your insurance company (I wouldn't be surprised if eventually they start asking for battery disclosures. They're super paranoid about fire in California).

SoCal has better spread between peak and off-peak than us in northern California, so maybe you can make the time shift work out financially with server rack batteries. It'll be significantly harder to make it work with UL9540 + rebates.

 

[soylentgreen]

Good info, thanks. All things considered, I think I'd prefer to just expand my system from 5KW solar to about 7KW solar, since energy is fungible and I may change my mind in the next 20 years about what I'm using it for.

But if I did that, as I understand it, I'd lose NEM1 and go to NEM3.

What does that mean? Under NEM1 on my current plan, I'm credited per kWh regardless of time, with a 12 month "true-up". E.g. if I generate 3 extra kWh in March, I get to use those 3kWH in December.

How does NEM3 change that?

 

[zanydroid]

NEM3 basically deletes net metering. Net metering is only provided on per minute basis. No same year as NEM1/2. Or even same hour. During the first year you get ~20% of your current sell back credit. And this scales down every year after that.

It would be very silly to add 2kW to lose net metering

Why worry about it? Get your interconnection paperwork in for the 2kW upgrade before the April transition date and you go on NEM2 instead of NEM3. You don’t need to put the panels in by April. If your paperwork has issues and you don’t have time to correct it, just don’t bother adding panels and stay on your current config.

 

[soylentgreen]

Is there a good table or chart which clearly lays out the NEM 1 vs 2 vs 3 rules? Googling gets me to a bunch of sites which are still complaining about the "old" NEM 3 proposals which never happened.

Or more specifically, what's the difference between NEM 1 and NEM 2 in SDGE land?

 

[zanydroid]

Any of the new marketing material by the solar installer lobby in California should have decently accurate info on NEM2 vs NEM3. Also NEM3’s official name is like “Net Billing”, probably to distinguish from the bad results for last year’s disaster.

 

[soylentgreen]

Thanks for all the input. In the interim, I decided "do nothing" was a good choice. I'm kind of glad I did, as now I see there's a proposal for yet another new "new" rate structure:

SDG&E, PG&E and Edison turned in a joint submission. Here’s how their proposal would play out for SDG&E customers:

• Households earning less than $28,000 a year would pay a fixed charge of $24 per month on their electric bills
• Households with annual income between $28,000 to $69,000 would pay $34 per month
• Households earning between $69,000 and $180,000 would pay $73 per month, and
• Those with incomes above $180,000 would pay $128.

Creating the income-based fixed charge, according to the proposal by the utilities, would lower SDG&E’s average electricity rate from about 47 cents per kilowatt-hour to around 27 cents — a reduction of 42.6 percent.

Source: https://www.sandiegouniontribune.co...ic-bill-will-it-make-ca-rates-more-affordable

This change if it goes through would really upend the financial calculations again.

 

[zanydroid]

Sure but you could also see this last minute release as an aggressive opening negotiation on their part that is conveniently timed to FUD people out of going in.

I’m not sure there’s a significant effect for self install unless you have very marginal and inefficient system. For turnkey install at 2.5x+ the outlay, sure, the FUD is more effective/unequivocally rational to react to

 

[Rocksnsalt]

Thanks for all the input. In the interim, I decided "do nothing" was a good choice. I'm kind of glad I did, as now I see there's a proposal for yet another new "new" rate structure:







Source: https://www.sandiegouniontribune.co...ic-bill-will-it-make-ca-rates-more-affordable

This change if it goes through would really upend the financial calculations again.

That SD U Trib article requires a subscription…
?

 

[soylentgreen]

Here's an archived version where you can read almost the entire article (Edit: and if you use Reader mode on your browser, the entire aritlce is viewable)

 

[400bird]

PGE is so proud of this ridiculous, greedy plan they put it on their website! They did not include the income numbers, but I had read them in a article similar to the SDGE above, but from a Northern California paper. The income tiers were similar.

For me, I'll go from the current $10(ish) per month in non-bypassable charges to $51/month.
$612/year just for the honor of the wires connecting to my house!

PG&E Submits Proposal to Lower Electric Bills for Low-income Customers, Provide More Bill Transparency and Stability, and Advance Clean Energy Goals

PG&E, along with Southern California Edison Company and San Diego Gas & Electric Company, today submitted a joint

www.pgecurrents.com

 

[Rocksnsalt]

PGE is so proud of this ridiculous, greedy plan they put it on their website! They did not include the income numbers, but I had read them in a article similar to the SDGE above, but from a Northern California paper. The income tiers were similar.

For me, I'll go from the current $10(ish) per month in non-bypassable charges to $51/month.
$612/year just for the honor of the wires connecting to my house!

PG&E Submits Proposal to Lower Electric Bills for Low-income Customers, Provide More Bill Transparency and Stability, and Advance Clean Energy Goals

PG&E, along with Southern California Edison Company and San Diego Gas & Electric Company, today submitted a joint

www.pgecurrents.com

View attachment 144716

Yeah and to me it’s obvious that though CA is usually at the forefront of advancing alternative energy, the Public Utilities Commisision appears to be in the pocket of the utility co‘s pge, sdge, and sce.
It’s totally incongruent with the message the state attempts to market towards us.

The lobbied scumbags at the puc approve rate hikes at least once a year, and Nem 3.0 approval which takes effect today unless all paperwork is already in and approved. Basically adding several years to the payoff time for a solar system since they cut the utility purchase of your energy rate by about 75%.
Used to be an even exchange under Nem 2.0, now they pay lowest tier and will charge you highest tier at night or when your system isn’t producing enough to cover your needs.
So now batteries will be a big push but that can get to be some serious cash outlay financed or not. And in the mean time the utilities are trying to boost a standard rate structure.
Imo utilities should not be for profit entities, always having to make ‘mo money on the backs of citizens, many of whom are just trying to get by.

How do PUC decision makers even get their job?
Im sure it’s quite competitive because I’m betting it’s lucrative under the table.

 

[oldnavy]

For me, I'll go from the current $10(ish) per month in non-bypassable charges to $51/month.
$612/year just for the honor of the wires connecting to my house!

I'm in the same boat, but in SD I'll be paying at least $73/mo. But to be fair, I do get to use the grid as my battery for that price. For those who purchased a solar battery with their solar system, this fee is a real slap. And I think we know this isn't the end of it, and the utilities will be looking at other fees to make non-bypassable, and increasing fixed costs in general.

 

[Rocksnsalt]

I didn’t submit anything before Nem 3.0 took effect, now I’m experiencing FIMO, which is not the same as FOMO.
The utilities were slick in timing the submitting of this new structure right as Nem 3.0 took over.

Thanks a lot CA “Public” Utility Commission.

Bstrds.