diy solar

diy solar

Solar levelized cost of electricity is 29% lower than any fossil fuel alternative

Subsidies should all be rescinded.
I'd prefer phased out to minimize economic impacts.

The actual cost of renewables isn't what is advertised. And doesn't include the land and lifetime recycling costs of the equipment in most estimates.
Even gas and coal plants have landfill and cleanup costs. Natural gas might be on par with solar, Nuclear and Coal are pretty expensive to dispose of and end of life.

LCOEs cover the entire life-cycle, so those unsubsidized costs should be representative from cradle to grave. However, I'm not sure they cover associated things like building pipelines for the transmission of gas to a power plant, so fossil fuels might be higher.

Thorium will never run out and is a better (safer) fuel than uranium. Our Dept of Energy decided in the 50s to pursue/permit/encourage uranium reactors for power generation because they _wanted_ the plutonium and other byproducts of those reactions for nuclear weapons.
There are a lot of promising nuclear technologies out there including thorium and fusion tech (like the idea of this one); but none are commercialized yet.

If batteries continue to come down, and the material supply chain can scale, and doesn't involve kids mining stuff in third world countries, and the used batteries can be recycled or trashed safely, excellent!
Child Labor: These issues AFAIK are about cobalt which is only in NMC battery and given the fire issues with them; most are getting away from that chemistry.

Recycled: Lithium batteries are said to be 95% recyclable, making them almost as recyclable as aluminum cans (100% recyclable, although a lot end up in dumps rather than recycled) and far better than plastic. There are several good videos doing tours of recycling plants. Batteries also have second-life applications similar to solar panels. Old wind turbine blades do sit in dumps, but new ones are now designed for recycling and there are recycling plants even for old ones.

Supply chain: A new deposit of lithium was recently found beyond Will's backyard that's thought to be large enough to resolve world demand through electrification (ref). Of course, there are lots of other big deposits in Australia, Bolivia, and even other places in Nevada.

The point is there are always problems discovered with new technology. That doesn't mean we stop, it means we find solutions and factor them into the price. Solar and wind, we know what those are now for land-based deployments. We don't know what they are for new technologies, but it's stuff we can probably solve even if like nuclear waste the solution is to bury it.

Nice chart. It might even be mostly accurate.... If I have learned anything in the last 10 years, it is that no data is trustworthy.
Most information is out of date by the time it's printed, something about the speed of business. But... trends can be your guide here.
What I believe is technological innovations (and yes subsidies) will help with renewable and nuclear, and not help with fossil fuels.

Because the us cost for gas is heavily subsidized.
I was looking at the graph in the link you provided, and think I've figured out why it looked odd to me.
It's limited to "energy" related subsidies; that is it's a worst-case scenario for renewables.

The reason I thought it odd was that the total amount on the chart is $18.4 billion.
But that seemed low given the worldwide, subsidies for fossil fuels are around $7 trillion.

I suspect those numbers do not include subsidies for things like fossil fuel exploration, pipelines, etc. which must all be in place for the energy to be delivered.

For example, the U.S. approved a billion in funding for natural gas distribution alone in one bill. But there are a lot of projects like that.
2016_Energy-Related_Tax_Preferences.png

In fact, it must be so as the U.S. Senate says taxpayers paid out $20 billion just to fossil fuel companies as subsidies, that's more than 100% of the chart above. But it's hard to get a cradle-to-grave total of what all the subsidies are.

On the flip side, the U.S. also subsidizes EVs, battery technology, and other things that are all a part of electrification. So, those would need to be included too for a true apples-to-apples. But ideally, as electrification happens, the fossil fuel subsidies are reduced accordingly (we'll still need them for our plastics addiction ;)).
 
In fact, it must be so as the U.S. Senate says taxpayers paid out $20 billion just to fossil fuel companies as subsidies, that's more than 100% of the chart above. But it's hard to get a cradle-to-grave total of what all the subsidies are.
Saying a tax credit, depreciation, etc. is a subsidy is misleading. It just taxing less.
 
Or, as I happens here, not charging any tax, while the rest of country pays itself silly in taxes..
I'd call that heavily subsidizing
Any tax is a reduction in economic activity. If a company is not profitable, it will go out of business. So the end consumer always pays anyway. Business just pass along any tax with the price of the product or service.
 
Saying a tax credit, depreciation, etc. is a subsidy is misleading. It just taxing less.
Solar farm equipment gets the same tax treatment as oil field depletion AND ANY OTHER CAPITAL ASSET OR EXPENSE THAT IS USED UP OVER TIME. Like a truck. Or a rental house or apartment. Or a milling machine. Etc…

Sheesh. Some of you (not @Danke) don’t have a clue how economics or taxes work.
 
Or, as I happens here, not charging any tax, while the rest of country pays itself silly in taxes..
I'd call that heavily subsidizing

Depreciation on capital equipment is similar to subtracting purchase price of goods you sold to determine gross markup.
We are normally taxed on profits, not gross sales.
Only time we're supposed to pay income tax on gross sales is if we operate an illegal business; then we are not allowed to deduct expenses. So if you sell illegal drugs etc., be sure to have high enough margins. (It is OK to break the law, just not to cheat the IRS.)
 
Depreciation on capital equipment is similar to subtracting purchase price of goods you sold to determine gross markup.
We are normally taxed on profits, not gross sales.
Only time we're supposed to pay income tax on gross sales is if we operate an illegal business; then we are not allowed to deduct expenses. So if you sell illegal drugs etc., be sure to have high enough margins. (It is OK to break the law, just not to cheat the IRS.)
I was talking purely taxes on profits
And oil has been making record , and untaxed, profits
Deals with the local version of the IRS, and many many former politicians somehow ending up on the board of said oil companies..
One big scam
 
I was talking purely taxes on profits
And oil has been making record , and untaxed, profits
Deals with the local version of the IRS, and many many former politicians somehow ending up on the board of said oil companies..
One big scam
Absolutely.

EVERYTHING that the government sticks it nose into gets corrupted and becomes a scam in short order. The “green” (like $ not trees) industry is even more driven by gov interference in the market.

In the US at least, oil companies pay huge taxes.

The golden rule is “whoever has the gold makes the rules”. Using gov to make the rules all legal and above board is the most direct and effective way for the ones with the gold to make the rules.

This is true in every industry big enough to bribe/support/gift/donate/“lobby”/whatever your local or national politician. And politicians are surprisingly cheap.

Power corrupts.
 
A discount on an arbitrary tax is not a subsidy.

From the article:

The Trouble with Fossil Fuel Subsidies
The sheer scale of subsidies makes them an important pillar of the fossil fuel industry. The International Institute for Sustainable Development (IISD) found that production subsidies by the G20 countries averaged $290 billion annually during 2017-2019. Of this amount, almost 95% went towards oil and gas, with a relatively small amount earmarked for coal. Similarly, in 2019, global consumption subsidies stood at around $320 billion. Once more, oil subsidies were the largest component, followed by electricity, natural gas, and then coal. While these subsidies have declined over the past several years—consumption subsidies were over $500 billion in 2013—they are still far higher than they should be.



**another article**

From that article:
As we’ll hear today, the United States subsidizes the fossil fuel industry with taxpayer dollars. It’s not just the US: according to the International Energy Agency, fossil fuel handouts hit a global high of $1 trillion in 2022 – the same year Big Oil pulled in a record $4 trillion of income.

In the United States, by some estimates taxpayers pay about $20 billion dollars every year to the fossil fuel industry. What do we get for that? Economists generally agree: not much. To quote conservative economist Gib Metcalf: these subsidies offer “little if any benefit in the form of oil patch jobs, lower prices at the pump, or increased energy security for the country.” The cash subsidy is both big and wrong.
 
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Right ..

Did you read it or just search and post something that looked relevant? Because I read it.

There are 2 main parts to the article. The first “Tax deferments for big oil”. Deferred taxes are explained very well here: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/deferredincometax.asp

They are the result of differences between calculating profits the way the IRS does vs the way(s) that accountants and financial statements do it according to standard accounting principles. They aren’t a subsidy at all. They mostly result from differences in depreciation schedules, and at the end the asset is depreciated to zero value and the taxes are paid.

Deferred taxes are not specific to the oil industry.

The problem is that the IRS (or Congress) insists on making up arbitrary rules that conflict with what every accountant will tell you is the right way (or actually, ways) to calculate depreciation (which is a cost against profits, and therefore affects taxable income).

The other section, titled “Subsidies for Big Oil”, says “gasp” that “oh no” the oil companies can deduct expenses “not related directly to the operation of an oil well”. JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER company does. You know, like when McDonalds or IBM pays their accountants, or an employee travels to see a customer or whatever.

The article is preying on ignorant fools that want to hear the conclusion they are pushing. There is _nothing_ in that article about subsidies for “big oil”. First, none of the tax law referenced is specific to oil or energy companies. Second, it even mentions that the motivations behind the cited tax policies are to keep the smaller competitors viable).
 
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They aren’t a subsidy at all.
From the article:

The industry also benefits from generous subsidies.

KEY TAKEAWAY​

  • Oil companies pay a lot less in taxes compared to most other companies.
  • The ability to defer taxes is an important tax advantage for oil companies.
  • The 2017 Tax Cuts and Jobs Act helped oil companies further by reducing the effective tax rate for companies to 21% from 35%.
  • Oil companies also receive subsidies that are aimed at helping the industry because oil is considered a vital commodity.
 
And if you want to look really deep, exactly how would you subsidize oil when oil is the energy and feedstock that makes all this possible.

Is the wood-burning stove industry subsidizing oil? Is the automotive industry subsidizing oil and would do so much better if their profits weren't being used to subsidize oil?

No. The only industry being subsidized is the alternative energy industry. It does not even generate enough energy to power itself.
 
In fact, that's a great way to tell is who is being subsidized.

If we took oil away, would we all be richer without it?

If we took solar away, would we all be richer without it?
 
The only industry being subsidized is the alternative energy industry. It does not even generate enough energy to power itself.
Really?
From:


You tally up the harms, and the IMF estimates it at a $5.4 trillion annual subsidy worldwide. In the United States, it’s $646 billion – every single year.
 
Really?
From:


You tally up the harms, and the IMF estimates it at a $5.4 trillion annual subsidy worldwide. In the United States, it’s $646 billion – every single year.

Did you tally up the benefits as well?

I guess I won't get an answer. This argument purports that oil provides no health or longevity benefits to humans.

Your solar panels would not exist without fossil fuel input.
 
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