SolarEdge Daytime Solar Options during power outtage?

[darkskies]

Hey Darkskies,
They came out with another application note 3.0 dated April 23 and now shows direct connection and talks about latest firmware and how it is supposed to behave. Still minimal on technical details like connections and programming, especially for different generators. Originally they promised a list of compatible generators and we have not seen that yet. Fingers crossed things will start coming out now.

I'll check it, but there has been a bunch of issues since last posting...

Through discussions with my installer, I mentioned that the system production was not performing as well as expected and that the temp ATS installed was not handling all circuits. I negotiated with them to upgrade my inverter from 7.6kW to 14.4kW and to replace the ATS with a 200A ATS to cover whole house.

In May, they came out with an ATS and inverter and they did the inverter update. There was a problem during the update and the battery breaker kept tripping. Inverter was reporting battery comm error and there was an error about no firmware on battery. Installer speculated that maybe it was trying to update the battery F/W and failed in that process. Kinda hard to believe though, as I would think it could fallback to older F/W. All speculation, of course.

In any case, the installer talked with SE and LG and an LG guy told them to RMA the battery. No reason as to what was wrong. However, the LG support person said that generator integration now works. After two weeks, we had the new battery, and several more weeks, the installer was out. So, in June, we had the replacement battery installed and system was working fine. The installer stated that he needed a relay, and that they could try the BUI with generator, and if it didn't work, they could replace the 100A ATS subpanel with a 200A ATS to cover all circuits.

Well, I nagged the installer for months to come out and they kept procrastinating, until yesterday. They came out, installed the relay, and removed the 100A ATS subpanel. Everything connected and worked. They simulated grid loss, and the generator came on. They couldn't test system running off battery and then switching to generator, as it was a sunny day and the PV system was handling all the house load and battery was not being used. I figured I'd test that, once we have an outage this Winter. I was cautiously optimistic.

Well, today, my little monitoring app, reported a FAULT at 11:30am. When I got home at 2pm, the generator was running. However, the inverter showed it was producing ~2kW, house was drawing ~700W, and 1.3kW was going to the grid. There was no grid failure, and the battery was at 100%.

My guess as to what happened, was that the Generac generator was turned on (by Generac) for its weekly test run. It usually comes on, every Tuesday, about 11:30am. This put the system in a funky state. I called the installer, and over the phone we did the following...

First, I turned off the generator and then turned it back to auto. It immediately came on (unexpected). I turned off the generator.

Next, I did a shutdown and startup of the inverter. It came up, still with a fault alarm and eventually (after grid test), PV was generating and it was driving house and excess to grid. However...

The battery breaker tripped. We did a power cycle of the inverter and system came up generating power. Once I turned on battery, the system went back into a grid test mode, and after about 2 minutes, the battery breaker tripped. We have a battery comm error from the inverter, and under the battery section of SetApp the battery has a 69 error. This is the same thing we had before, with the previous battery. Argh!

Worst still, the indicator on the relay for the generator is still off (implying that the generator would run, if it was in auto).

So, not only do we have a unusally, fully charged battery, but the generator will now run continuously (even though it isn't providing any power to anything). Essentially, one step forward and two steps back.

Installer was going to have SE see if they can do anything remotely (comms work), and will be out tomorrow to contact SE and LG and do the finger pointing game again...

I did look in June and didn't recall seeing any newer firmware than what we had and I don't recall seeing any releases this year that mentioned generator integration. Also, I had opened a ticket with SE two weeks ago, asking if integration was working and they said not yeat, and no ETA (hence I was skeptical that this would work).


I'll double check tonight, RE the releases.

 

[darkskies]

The firmware I have is 4.18.32 (https://www.solaredge.com/en/support/setapp-inverters-firmware#_New_Features_and32) , which appears to be the latest. Can you point me to the release note you see, @Bradeyboy ?

 

[Bradeyboy]

First off, which Generac do you have? Curious how they wired a dry contact off the BUI to the generator to control start. That is the piece stopping me. I downloaded this new application note last week. Title is: SolarEdge Inverter Generator Compatibility with Home Hub + Backup Interface (BUI)
Heck if I can find this on the web anywhere today and my computer download section cannot find it. I printed out a hard copy and have it in my hands. Version 3.0 (April 2023)-Enhanced generator functionality

 

[darkskies]

I have the 10kwH unit, propane powered, Guardian model (G0071710). I found the doc you mentioned. It is much like the one that is part of the release notes from last August. Seems to show configurations with separate sub-panel and ATS.

Installer is out today. It appears the relay has failed. It is an external relay that is connected to the BUI, main panel, and the generator. My understanding is that it is normally open, and power from the panel keeps the relay closed (LED) on. When there is loss of power at the panel, the switch opens and that sends a signal to the generator to turn it on.

In my case, the relay failed and is always open, so generator always running. The installer is replacing the relay. He doesn't know why the relay failed, as it is just voltage sensing, from what I understand.

Via SetApp, the inverter was updating the firmware of the inverter and battery, but the battery keeps tripping. The installer is trying to connect with SolarEdge support right now.

The inverter had 4.17.221, but was updated to 4.18.32 I think Monday, when they were out here removing the temp ATS and trying BUI with generator. Odd thing is that the battery show version 1.2.16, whereas the old battery showed 1.2.18, before we replaced batteries. Not sure what version the new battery was at (I didn't record it), but right now, setApp was trying to download 1.2.16.

Will see what they find out today.

 

[Bradeyboy]

Yes keep me updated. I have the same setup but with a 16kw Generac that is a older one. My LG battery is the 10kw RESU original. I just got it replaced less than a year ago because of a failure. I am my own installer. I took all of the training and am qualified with LG and Solaredge. I am a level 3 tech and work on electrical and electronic systems in my primary job. Have been using my system as training to gear up for a retirement job in solar soon.

 

[Bradeyboy]

My Energy hub is the model that still can use any of the three battery types. The new inverters no longer support the older LG Batteries it looks like.

 

[darkskies]

LG battery (which is second one, and about 4 months old) shows an error (69) and comm failure. SolarEdge had installer reset inverter to factory settings, but that did not help. Support wants installer to RMA the battery (again). Personally, I think there is some compatibility issue with firmware between inverter and battery, as both my batteries were working fine beforehand.

External relay was bad, and replaced.The external relay was then (temporarily) reconfigured so that grid holds relay open. When grid goes out, the relay closes and that turns on the generator. We were able to test a grid outage and verified generator ran. We also manually started the generator with grid (and PV) working to ensure system continued to operate, sending PV to house and grid. The inverter shows a fault because both the ATS and generator relays in the BUI are activated during the test. Clears, once test is done.

Once battery is replaced, the external relay will be reconfigured so that the inverter, via the BUI will signal the generator to run when the inverter reports that the battery is below the set threshold (20%).

So, will be a month or so, before we get battery and can continue to test this out. I'm going to track inverter and LG battery versions before/after.

 

[Bradeyboy]

Where is the relay wired into? Does your installer have a schematic of what he did? Is the LG battery the Prime or Resu?

 

[Quattrohead]

Are you the only person in the world running this setup? Sure sounds like your beta testing it for them.

 

[Bradeyboy]

Are you the only person in the world running this setup? Sure sounds like your beta testing it for them.

I have found a couple of others. They would never say how the BUI worked with direct connection until the latest application note that released after April. I am about ready to take my Generac ATS out of the loop and go direct after I get a little more info.

 

[darkskies]

Where is the relay wired into? Does your installer have a schematic of what he did? Is the LG battery the Prime or Resu?

No schematic or diagram. It connects to the main panel (tied into a two poll breaker - not sure if to detect if power or not), the BUI (to connect to some signaling outputs?), and the generator (to signal it to turn on/off).

I know that he temporarily moved the one relay sensor wire from the connector in the middle of the BUI, to one of the grid inputs so that, for now, the relay can detect if power loss and run the generator.

If I get a chance (maybe over the weekend) I can take the cover off the junction box that the relay is connected to, and try to figure out the wiring there.

The battery is the 16kWh LG RESU PRIME battery.

 

[Bradeyboy]

Is your Generac a Guardian? What controller is on it? Is it digital or no? Maybe send me a pic of the generator control panel and the old transfer switch and the relay and connections. I can figure out how they did it. My concern was how they keep the battery charger going without the Generac transfer switch in the loop.

 

[darkskies]

It's a guardian, with a digital control panel, Wi-Fi, etc. Model is G0071710. Not ATS now, because...

Original design was to have inverter, battery, and BackUp Interface to provide whole house backup and generator integration. After getting all the needed components in 2021-2022 (pandemic caused delays with generator and battery, we found out that the generator integration had the caveat that it was dependent on "required inverter firmware", which was not available.

As a workaround, my installer put in a 100A sub-panel with ATS to allow the generator to power critical circuits. I've been nagging SolarEdge about the firmware for two years, of which each release seems to add more support. However, in May, when we had our inverter updated to the 14.4 kW unit, and were having an issue with it working with the LG battery (our first RMA), the LG support guy told my installer that the integration does work now.

So, this week, my installer tried the integration, and removed the ATS, moved the circuits back to the main panel, and added this relay to a junction box that is connected to the main panel via double pole breaker, connected to the backup interface, and connected to the generator (I think it is a signalling and power to generator to charge battery). The signalling from the generator (indicating it is running and would have controlled the ATS) is dead-ended and not used.

So, there is no ATS now. I was told that the way it works is that, when the inverter detects that the battery is below selected threshold (20%), it will signal to the BUI, which in turn will cause the relay to trigger the generator to turn on and power the whole house and charge the battery via the BUI. Once the battery is charged (to what level?) the inverter will signal the BUI to turn off the generator (via the relay), and it will run off battery/PV.

They were able to get that working and demonstrate with a loss of grid, the generator would run. Could not test battery depletion, because the PV was generating more power than we needed and battery was fully charged. Of course, there was an fault the next day (coincidentally, when the generator was doing a weekly exercise run), and we ended up with a relay that bad (so generator wouldn't turn off) and then some issue with battery communication and firmware issue. Could not get battery to stay up, even after factory reset of inverter and re-download of firmware.

I'll try to get a picture (which won't help much) and take a look at the relay wiring).

 

[darkskies]

Are you the only person in the world running this setup? Sure sounds like your beta testing it for them.

SolarEdge official position to customers is that it isn't working yet, but will be in near future (been saying that for a year). The installer is seeing more screens showing info for this, and the LG support guy says it is working now. We are likely doing unofficial beta testing.

What I'm concerned about is that we've had two LG batteries that ran flawlessly, and are all of a sudden bricks, after updating the inverter to larger unit (same family). SolarEdge is quick to just RMA it (instead of root cause things), but I think there is some firmware version issue between the inverter and battery.

When the inverter was updated, the F/W was also updated to 4.17.221. That's when we had a battery issue. With the replacement battery, the battery F/W was 1.2.18 (don't know what it was before). This week, when they did reconfiguration, the inverter version is now 4.18.32, and the battery, now failed, has 1.2.16 and that is what it was trying to install.

I don't know if it is trying to go to 1.2.16 and then step up to 1.2.18 and for some reason 4.17.221 and 1.2.16 don't play well together or what. Just my conjecture.

 

[darkskies]

I looked at the wiring, however it was reconfigured to just run the generator as I do not have a working battery.

Essentially, there is a two pole 15 amp breaker in the main panel, which is connected to the normally open contacts of a pair of relays in the relay unit being used. These are connected to the generators line sensing connections. The coil of the relay is connected to neutral and one of the grid line inputs so that it energizes the relay and allows the generator to sense the AC power from the panel (both legs).

When the grid goes down, the relay is no longer energized, the generator no longer senses power, and runs. Even though the generator is providing power to the panel, meaning the lines from the panel have power, the deenergized coil prevents the generator from sensing power and turning off.

I think with the battery installed, he had the lines from the main panel connected to the normally closed contacts, so that the generator would detect power whether on grid, PV, or battery. When the battery gets to lower limit (20% in my case), the inverter signals the BUI and it uses the dry contact connections to energize the coil and break the connection to the generator, causing it to turn on.

I didn't get to see the wiring with the battery working and I didn't get to ask about how/when the inverter signals to the BUI, when the battery is charged.

Also, I'm not sure how the dry contact works. Is it open, and then closed based on on the signal from the inverter to cause the generator to run? If there is no battery or inverter power, for some reason, would the contact be open, meaning the generator would run (circuit closed but no power sensed)? If so, once the generator turns on, won't it sense its own AC from the main panel and shut back off? Or would the inverter come up enough to close the contact, so that the generator does not sense power?

Maybe the expectation is that this condition would not happen (not have a battery fall so low that the inverter looses power).

 

[Bradeyboy]

Thanks for the update. Let me know when you get the whole thing working as advertised! Sounds like some issues plaguing you still.

 

[darkskies]

Thanks for the update. Let me know when you get the whole thing working as advertised! Sounds like some issues plaguing you still.

Yeah, frustrated again. It's been almost 2 weeks and my installer still hasn't gotten LG to start the RMA process.

 

[Quattrohead]

LG (and Samsung) are a horrible company to deal with, that is the only reason I never buy their appliances.

 

[Bradeyboy]

Yeah, frustrated again. It's been almost 2 weeks and my installer still hasn't gotten LG to start the RMA process.

I really don't understand what could have happened. Did you say you had the LG Prime battery? i have not worked with those yet.

 

[darkskies]

Yes, LG Prime RESU 16kWh battery. It worked fine after inverter upgrade, until the generator did it's weekly exercise run the next day after upgrade (coincidence?). The generator did not turn off at the end of the exercise (ran for about 2 hours, until I got home). Turned generator off, and then back to auto, but it came on again. Shut off generator, did a restart of the inverter (DC off, AC off, AC on, DC on), and inverter came back up fine. However, during the start up the battery breaker tripped. Inverter was showing a battery comm error (#?), and a battery (69) error.

Installer on-site had determined that the relay was defective, which is why the generator always came on. They worked with SolarEdge support to try to get things working. They had tried a factory reset of the inverter, to no avail. In the end, SolarEdge told them to do an RMA of the battery with LG.

I had heard, several days later, that the installer submitted the paperwork, but had not heard back from LG yet. More that a week has past, and I'm still waiting to hear from installer about the RMA.

The only other thing I noticed was that in all this process, the battery was trying to install firmware 1.2.16. I'm not sure what version was on there before with that battery, but the previous battery, back in May, had 1.2.18, before it was replaced. Also, I think when the new inverter was installed, the firmware was updated to the latest 4.18.32, whereas the older inverter, just before replacement had 4.17.221. My understanding is that they have to manually update the version using setApp (it does not get updated automatically). I'm wondering if there is some incompatibility issue with the firmware on the battery and on the inverter, but that's just a guess.