SolarEdge Daytime Solar Options during power outtage?
- Thread starter DelcoMade
- Start date
darkskies
New Member
This is the unit...
Essentially, it is a pair of relays, of which each can operate as N.O. or N.C.
Currently, because the battery is disabled, it is set to be N.O. for each leg of 120V from main panel (and goes to the power sense on the generator). The control for the coil is connected to one of the grid lines. If power from grid is lost, the connection relay opens, and generator runs. When grid is back, it switches back to grid/PV. It is set this way, only because the battery is not operational.
Before, they told me it was set to N.C., but I'm not sure exactly how they had it wired. I think they had it set up so that the dry contact on the BUI would close, if battery went below 20% and no grid?, which would cause the generator to run and power the panel and recharge the battery. I don't know what battery threshold would close the contact and go back to battery/PV/grid.
Nor do I know how it handles the edge case where the battery is dead for some reason and the grid is out. The contact would be closed, but no voltage at the generator sense wires, so generator would run. But, then there would be voltage at the generator sense lines (from the generator, through the main panel) and I would think the generator would stop. Unless the inverter could boot up, determine that battery was low, and have enough power to signal to close the dry contact on the BUI? I'm not sure the inverter could startup that quickly (unless they signal the dry contact first thing?). All conjecture, of course.
I didn't get to talk to the installer about that edge case and how it would be handled - and whether or not my understand of the wiring was correct (other than I know they run it N.C.).
Right now, I'm just trying to get the RMA'ed battery so that they'll come out and connect it back up the way they had previously done. In isntaller is not very responsive (frustrates me to no end). After emailing/calling them about 10 times over two weeks, I finally found out Friday afternoon, that LG is processing the RMA and will be sending tracking info next week (I was told by the installer that LG said they have switched over to a new system and were slow in processing RMAs as a result).
So, two weeks have passed and LG is just starting the process to send a battery. A much slower response than last time, when the battery was delivered in about 2.5 weeks (of course it took the installer a month to come out to install
).
Essentially, it is a pair of relays, of which each can operate as N.O. or N.C.
Currently, because the battery is disabled, it is set to be N.O. for each leg of 120V from main panel (and goes to the power sense on the generator). The control for the coil is connected to one of the grid lines. If power from grid is lost, the connection relay opens, and generator runs. When grid is back, it switches back to grid/PV. It is set this way, only because the battery is not operational.
Before, they told me it was set to N.C., but I'm not sure exactly how they had it wired. I think they had it set up so that the dry contact on the BUI would close, if battery went below 20% and no grid?, which would cause the generator to run and power the panel and recharge the battery. I don't know what battery threshold would close the contact and go back to battery/PV/grid.
Nor do I know how it handles the edge case where the battery is dead for some reason and the grid is out. The contact would be closed, but no voltage at the generator sense wires, so generator would run. But, then there would be voltage at the generator sense lines (from the generator, through the main panel) and I would think the generator would stop. Unless the inverter could boot up, determine that battery was low, and have enough power to signal to close the dry contact on the BUI? I'm not sure the inverter could startup that quickly (unless they signal the dry contact first thing?). All conjecture, of course.
I didn't get to talk to the installer about that edge case and how it would be handled - and whether or not my understand of the wiring was correct (other than I know they run it N.C.).
Right now, I'm just trying to get the RMA'ed battery so that they'll come out and connect it back up the way they had previously done. In isntaller is not very responsive (frustrates me to no end). After emailing/calling them about 10 times over two weeks, I finally found out Friday afternoon, that LG is processing the RMA and will be sending tracking info next week (I was told by the installer that LG said they have switched over to a new system and were slow in processing RMAs as a result).
So, two weeks have passed and LG is just starting the process to send a battery. A much slower response than last time, when the battery was delivered in about 2.5 weeks (of course it took the installer a month to come out to install
).
Quattrohead
Solar Wizard
DPDT relay with a 24/120v coil. 10A 240v contacts.
So how would you wire this so that a two wire start caontact closure from the Backup Interface would start an older whole home Generac 16kw?
darkskies
New Member
This is the wiring I currently have (note: It starts generator, when there is loss of grid power - not based on battery)...
I'm GUESSING that for battery use, they have the relays set for N.C. and white/black connected to one of the main panel hot wires, and the white/yellow connected to one of the dry contact connections, where the other side of the dry connection is connected to neutral (as shown currently).
Normally, the coil has power from the main panel, when battery hits 20%, the inverter signals the BUI to open the contact, causing the generator sense lines to lose power and turn the generator on. I'm not sure how they had the dry contact wired, though the white (neutral) connection was not changed, when they set up the current configuration.
I'm GUESSING that for battery use, they have the relays set for N.C. and white/black connected to one of the main panel hot wires, and the white/yellow connected to one of the dry contact connections, where the other side of the dry connection is connected to neutral (as shown currently).
Normally, the coil has power from the main panel, when battery hits 20%, the inverter signals the BUI to open the contact, causing the generator sense lines to lose power and turn the generator on. I'm not sure how they had the dry contact wired, though the white (neutral) connection was not changed, when they set up the current configuration.
darkskies
New Member
Well, LG is sending the replacement battery. Should be here 12/5, and hopefully, I won't have to wait too long for my installer to get out here and install it. I'll be able to get to see the actual wiring used on the relay until at that time. I want to ask the installer about how that will work for the edge case of the battery going dead (low enough not to power the inverter to signal the dry contacts).
Fingers crossed that this will work. I'm still not convinced that there isn't some incompatibility between the battery and inverter firmware.
Fingers crossed that this will work. I'm still not convinced that there isn't some incompatibility between the battery and inverter firmware.
darkskies
New Member
Battery arrived Wednesday, and installer came yesterday to install the battery. They opened the box and LG had sent a 10kwh and not the 16 kwh battery! So, my installer is now working on contacting LG about the SNAFU.
One good thing is that I didn't talk to the installer about the relay. I guess it all depends on the generator used, and in my case, with a Generac, which has a 3-wire sensing circuit, a relay is needed so that the dry contact on the BUI can open the relay to tell the generator to come on, when the inverter detects that the battery has fallen below the desired limit (20% charge in my case). I guess with other generators, this relay is not needed.
I imagine it will be several weeks, before we get the right replacement battery.
One good thing is that I didn't talk to the installer about the relay. I guess it all depends on the generator used, and in my case, with a Generac, which has a 3-wire sensing circuit, a relay is needed so that the dry contact on the BUI can open the relay to tell the generator to come on, when the inverter detects that the battery has fallen below the desired limit (20% charge in my case). I guess with other generators, this relay is not needed.
I imagine it will be several weeks, before we get the right replacement battery.
darkskies
New Member
Update: 16kWh battery arrived last Friday, and install came today to swap out the "failed" battery, and switch the relay to N.C. The firmware in the inverter and battery were updated to the latest (there was a Nov 2023 release).
For now, everything is working, battery is charging (even though it was very cloudy and rainy today), no errors showing from inverter, everything is talking to one another and to SolarEdge monitoring, and they were able to simulate a grid outage, by using the disconnect on the BackUp Interface. Not identical to grid outage, but at least showed that it would switch to battery, and then generator and the battery was being charged.
I'll have to see what happens when there is a long outage (we had a 6 hour outage last week due to a storm, but everything wasn't set up) and see it run on battery/solar, until the battery hits 20%, and then see if the generator comes on and recharges the battery. Hopefully that won't be anytime soon!
I also want to see what happens Tuesday, when the generator comes on for a weekly exercise. Maybe a coincidence, but the last time, the system failure happened right when the generator was exercising.
Fingers crossed, hoping that everything is operational now.
For now, everything is working, battery is charging (even though it was very cloudy and rainy today), no errors showing from inverter, everything is talking to one another and to SolarEdge monitoring, and they were able to simulate a grid outage, by using the disconnect on the BackUp Interface. Not identical to grid outage, but at least showed that it would switch to battery, and then generator and the battery was being charged.
I'll have to see what happens when there is a long outage (we had a 6 hour outage last week due to a storm, but everything wasn't set up) and see it run on battery/solar, until the battery hits 20%, and then see if the generator comes on and recharges the battery. Hopefully that won't be anytime soon!
I also want to see what happens Tuesday, when the generator comes on for a weekly exercise. Maybe a coincidence, but the last time, the system failure happened right when the generator was exercising.
Fingers crossed, hoping that everything is operational now.
darkskies
New Member
So far battery is working, no breaker tripping on battery module, and no problems when the generator ran on its weekly test run (apparently was a coincidence last time and a faulty relay).
It is the same configuration, and the relay is still in place, but he modified the wiring that I showed in my diagram previously, so that the relay is normally closed, and instead of being de-energized by the loss of grid power, it is energized by the dry contact on the BackUp Interface.
The expected operation is... power failure... runs on solar and battery. When battery hits 20%, the inverter signals the BUI to energize the relay, which will break the connection to the A.C. sense of the generator. Generator will turn on, power the house and recharge the battery. I'm not sure what level the battery will get to, such that the inverter will tell the BUI to turn off the dry contact, causing the generator to stop and power to resume from solar/battery.
We haven't had a power outage (yet) to test the system running on battery and switching to generator. It's early in the season, so I may get that chance to see. There isn't really a way to simulate an outage with this setup.
I'm just happy that the inverter and battery are up and working, firmware is up to date, and we're getting some use of the battery (been pretty cloudy for a while). I'll post, if I get an outage and I get to see the full operation.
It is the same configuration, and the relay is still in place, but he modified the wiring that I showed in my diagram previously, so that the relay is normally closed, and instead of being de-energized by the loss of grid power, it is energized by the dry contact on the BackUp Interface.
The expected operation is... power failure... runs on solar and battery. When battery hits 20%, the inverter signals the BUI to energize the relay, which will break the connection to the A.C. sense of the generator. Generator will turn on, power the house and recharge the battery. I'm not sure what level the battery will get to, such that the inverter will tell the BUI to turn off the dry contact, causing the generator to stop and power to resume from solar/battery.
We haven't had a power outage (yet) to test the system running on battery and switching to generator. It's early in the season, so I may get that chance to see. There isn't really a way to simulate an outage with this setup.
I'm just happy that the inverter and battery are up and working, firmware is up to date, and we're getting some use of the battery (been pretty cloudy for a while). I'll post, if I get an outage and I get to see the full operation.
darkskies
New Member
UPDATE...
Recap...
In normal operation, the grid, generator, solar panels and battery via inverter are connected to the BackUp Interface (BUI), which connects these sources to the main panel. With the sun out, power comes from the panels, and battery (if enough charge), and potentially some from the grid, if not enough power to run the house. Once the sun is down, power comes from the battery (if above the 20% charge setting), and/or grid.
When there is a grid outage, the expectation is that the system will disconnect from the grid, and power the house from the battery. When the battery hits 20%, the inverter will trigger dry contacts on the BUI to open the circuit for the generator's power sense lines, which are connected to the main panel. The generator senses an outage, spins up, and will power the house. Hopefully the transition from battery to generator will be smooth.
Since I last wrote, we have not had an opportunity to test this backup operation out... until now.
Tuesday, the system went into WeatherGuard mode, and the battery, once charged to 100%, was not used, once the sun went down, reserving it any potential storm (as expected).
Wednesday, at 5am, with 6" of heavy snow over night, and very high winds, the power went out. I was expecting the system to run on battery for at least 10-12 hours, like it usually would do.
Well, the generator came on and ran for less than a minute (30 seconds coming up to speed), turned off, and then after a few seconds came back on and repeated the cycle continuously!
From what I could tell, the system detected the grid outage, and showed that the battery was in "backup mode", but the battery was not supplying power to the house! It remained at 98%, but the house had no power. As a result, the generator's power sense lines, connected to the main panel, detected a loss, and it powered up. Once up to speed, it started supplying power to the house. Of course, the generator's sensing lines then "saw" the power that it generated, and turned the generator off after 10 seconds or so. Now, the sense line detected no power, and it started back up.
Since the sensing lines are connected to the main panel, my work-around, was to shut off the breaker, so that the generator thought there was no power and would run continuously. At 7am, we lost internet too, so there was no way to tell what was going on with the generator or inverter, other than to look at the LCD display on the generator and LEDs on the SolarEdge gear (the box reports everything, via the Internet to SolarEdgfe, of which I can then go to their monitoring web site to see status/alarms/etc).
The outage lasted for almost 36 hours. I found out that the power had come back on, because the power glitched as the BUI switched from generator to grid, and the Internet came back up, of which I have a custom app running on one of my servers and it polls the SolarEdge API for my site and could report that the system went from FAULT -> ON GRID. I then, turned the breaker back on, so that the generator would see that we had power and would shut off.
So, it detected the outage (and return of grid), and sourced the house with generator power, but it did not send battery power to the house during the outage (like it does. when we have grid).
Frustrating, as I was hoping this was finally working. It's not...
Recap...
In normal operation, the grid, generator, solar panels and battery via inverter are connected to the BackUp Interface (BUI), which connects these sources to the main panel. With the sun out, power comes from the panels, and battery (if enough charge), and potentially some from the grid, if not enough power to run the house. Once the sun is down, power comes from the battery (if above the 20% charge setting), and/or grid.
When there is a grid outage, the expectation is that the system will disconnect from the grid, and power the house from the battery. When the battery hits 20%, the inverter will trigger dry contacts on the BUI to open the circuit for the generator's power sense lines, which are connected to the main panel. The generator senses an outage, spins up, and will power the house. Hopefully the transition from battery to generator will be smooth.
Since I last wrote, we have not had an opportunity to test this backup operation out... until now.
Tuesday, the system went into WeatherGuard mode, and the battery, once charged to 100%, was not used, once the sun went down, reserving it any potential storm (as expected).
Wednesday, at 5am, with 6" of heavy snow over night, and very high winds, the power went out. I was expecting the system to run on battery for at least 10-12 hours, like it usually would do.
Well, the generator came on and ran for less than a minute (30 seconds coming up to speed), turned off, and then after a few seconds came back on and repeated the cycle continuously!
From what I could tell, the system detected the grid outage, and showed that the battery was in "backup mode", but the battery was not supplying power to the house! It remained at 98%, but the house had no power. As a result, the generator's power sense lines, connected to the main panel, detected a loss, and it powered up. Once up to speed, it started supplying power to the house. Of course, the generator's sensing lines then "saw" the power that it generated, and turned the generator off after 10 seconds or so. Now, the sense line detected no power, and it started back up.
Since the sensing lines are connected to the main panel, my work-around, was to shut off the breaker, so that the generator thought there was no power and would run continuously. At 7am, we lost internet too, so there was no way to tell what was going on with the generator or inverter, other than to look at the LCD display on the generator and LEDs on the SolarEdge gear (the box reports everything, via the Internet to SolarEdgfe, of which I can then go to their monitoring web site to see status/alarms/etc).
The outage lasted for almost 36 hours. I found out that the power had come back on, because the power glitched as the BUI switched from generator to grid, and the Internet came back up, of which I have a custom app running on one of my servers and it polls the SolarEdge API for my site and could report that the system went from FAULT -> ON GRID. I then, turned the breaker back on, so that the generator would see that we had power and would shut off.
So, it detected the outage (and return of grid), and sourced the house with generator power, but it did not send battery power to the house during the outage (like it does. when we have grid).
Frustrating, as I was hoping this was finally working. It's not...
darkskies
New Member
How do you test a grid outage?
Flip the main breaker between my house and the grid.
darkskies
New Member
When the installer was integrating this together, there didn't seem to be a way to disconnect JUST the grid to test the backup mode.
As I understand it, the grid, inverter/battery, and generator are connected to a SolarEdge BackUp Interface, which feeds the main panel. There is a breaker (obviously) on the BUI, but I think it disconnects all sources from the main panel (rapid shutdown?). There's no schematic of this BUI, so I can't tell, if there is some way to simulate a backup situation.
The installer didn't seem to be able to test that either (they could simulate low battery, but opening the relay to the generator sense lines, to ensure the generator would come on).
I agree, that making these devices all cloud operable is a bad design. It makes it great to remotely monitor and diagnose the system, but once the internet is down, they are useless. They do have a SetApp program that runs on your phone, and can connect to the built-in wi-fi of the inverter, but I only have homeowner access and can just view some system info and cannot make any changes or control things.
As I understand it, the grid, inverter/battery, and generator are connected to a SolarEdge BackUp Interface, which feeds the main panel. There is a breaker (obviously) on the BUI, but I think it disconnects all sources from the main panel (rapid shutdown?). There's no schematic of this BUI, so I can't tell, if there is some way to simulate a backup situation.
The installer didn't seem to be able to test that either (they could simulate low battery, but opening the relay to the generator sense lines, to ensure the generator would come on).
I agree, that making these devices all cloud operable is a bad design. It makes it great to remotely monitor and diagnose the system, but once the internet is down, they are useless. They do have a SetApp program that runs on your phone, and can connect to the built-in wi-fi of the inverter, but I only have homeowner access and can just view some system info and cannot make any changes or control things.
Hmm I think we have a case of different legislation around here (France) you must have a general grid disconnect/breaker, in a place the firemen and emergency services will easily find like next to the door. If you have PV you have to slap a big sticker on it that says so, I assume this is to inform them they have to make the expendable intern handle the firehose.
In fact this breaker is "property of the utility". The utility smartmeter can also cut the power, either manually or via not paying the bill. Thus its's quite easy to test...
Ironically the only stuff on the backup port is the freezer and the circulator for the heating... because the old central heating wood furnace (backup for my heat pump) will run without electricity, but the circulators won't.
Did the installer really build your system without any way to test it?
around here (France) you must have a general grid disconnect/breaker, in a place the firemen and emergency services will easily find like next to the door. If you have PV you have to slap a big sticker on it that says so, I assume this is to inform them they have to make the expendable intern handle the firehose.In fact this breaker is "property of the utility". The utility smartmeter can also cut the power, either manually or via not paying the bill. Thus its's quite easy to test...
Ironically the only stuff on the backup port is the freezer and the circulator for the heating... because the old central heating wood furnace (backup for my heat pump) will run without electricity, but the circulators won't.
Did the installer really build your system without any way to test it?
400bird
Solar Wizard
Yeah, you're required to have a main breaker on the US, location on the premise isn't dictated other than height from the ground. Warning stickers in solar stuff is required too.Hmm I think we have a case of different legislation
darkskies
New Member
The normal PV and battery part was tested well - a standard product that SolarEdge sells. However, the BackUpInterface is I think SolarEdge's attempt to integrate with whole house generators and batteries. SolarEdge advertised this BUI, and I bought a system with it in July of 2021. Of course, on the inverter data sheet, they had an asterisk saying the BUI and generator integration would work "with required firmware upgrade". At the time, it was hard to get a generator and batteries (supply chain issues), so the system was built and integrated over 6-9 months. When we got to using the generator (late 2021), we (installer and me) found out that the "firmware" wasn't ready yet.Hmm I think we have a case of different legislation
In fact this breaker is "property of the utility". The utility smartmeter can also cut the power, either manually or via not paying the bill. Thus its's quite easy to test...
Ironically the only stuff on the backup port is the freezer and the circulator for the heating... because the old central heating wood furnace (backup for my heat pump) will run without electricity, but the circulators won't.
Did the installer really build your system without any way to test it?
SolarEdge kept saying they're working on bugs... should be available soon...etc. In the interim, the installer connected the generator to a 100A panel with ATS and redirected critical circuits over, so that we had some backup capability on outages. It's been a long and painful saga over the years.
Finally, SiolarEdge finally indicated that they had firmware that should work. My installer came out, connected the generator to the BUI and removed the ATS panel, restoring circuits to the main panel. Because of the generator design, a relay was needed to allow the BUI to control when the generator can be actived. This was mentioned earlier in this thread.
At the time, I was also having issues with the battery bricking. I personally think there was an incompatibility between the inverter and battery, as the inverter is supposed to download the lastest firmware into the battery and we'd get cases where that would not happen, and LG wqould send out another battery (I think I'm on my third one). Another painful thing.
The point being, it was hard to have all the pieces functioning at once. When we finally did get it going, the only thing they could test was simulating the BUI triggering the relay, causing the generator to run. I don't know I the installer was/is able to do any more testing. so, it was left with waiting for a storm, to see if things worked correctly - we knew the generator would work, if there was no battery power.
Well, it didn't. The installer will come out next week, and work with SolarEdge to troubleshoot the issue. I've been asking them if there is some way to simulate the grid outage, without shutting down everything.
I do know that there is a switch on the outside of the BUI that does a rapid shutdown of everything, just like there is one outside the house, by the meter for fire department access.
Oh crap
These smart devices, they do what they want, but it's never exactly what you want
That's the one you'd use to disconnect the house from the grid and simulate a blackout.
darkskies
New Member
I though that the switch on the outside was part of the rapid shutdown - killing everything, much the same as what the switch on the BUI does?Oh crap
These smart devices, they do what they want, but it's never exactly what you want
That's the one you'd use to disconnect the house from the grid and simulate a blackout.
I'll ask the installer when he comes this week...
Similar threads
