Zero Eport and the EG4 18Kpv

[Rusty959]

Here's a few hours worth of data from my emporia with the electric dryer turned on about halfway through. The spike over 10kW is the EV charger. The last 5 spikes are the dryer running harder for some reason, idk it's just a timed dry.
I've attached the data in case anyone wants to zoom in or see the rest of my circuits.
It is going slightly negative for a very short period when the dryer is cycling off
Disclaimer: this is just another measurement method and my L1 and L2 are not balanced by several hundred watts. Would be a >10% error to cause this to not actually be exporting, but worth mentioning.


Here's a focused view on the last few minutes:


Greatest export was 127 watts during that period, it never exported for more than 1s.

 

[Cheap 4-life]

This post is specifically about the 18kpv, and the 18kpv is designed to be primarily used as a whole home backup system where the 200A service entrance is routed through the inverter, and it's plenty beefy to handle reasonable surges.

Whatever other inverters you're talking about are off topic.

I agree if using the eg4 with a 200amp passthru it could make the most sense to wire it as you de scribe. However even in the manual there’s alternative wiring/installation instructions. Also many situations when wiring it as you describe are to costly or can’t be done.
yes it can handle the surges but it’s working the inverter unnecessarily hard if it could be installed to allow the grid to handle the surge. Inverter would have a longer life.
if the 18k eg4 is installed between the meter and the main panel then it should only export when the loads after the inverter are satisfied and after the battery is charged.. if export isn’t allowed then simple, turn it off. Most hybrid inverters have options to do so.. it’s a very common thing to turn off export and should be simple, more so if all the loads are after the inverter, basically all loads offgrid,,, then export isn’t an option at all therefore zero export EG4 wouldn’t even be a topic for a post.

 

[Cheap 4-life]

Here's a few hours worth of data from my emporia

To clarify. Is this just the stock emporia showing accuracy/clarity better than what comes with a stock Iotawatt? If so I was wrong about emporia

 

[Rusty959]

I agree if using the eg4 with a 200amp passthru it could make the most sense to wire it as you de scribe. However even in the manual there’s alternative wiring/installation instructions. Also many situations when wiring it as you describe are to costly or can’t be done.
yes it can handle the surges but it’s working the inverter unnecessarily hard if it could be installed to allow the grid to handle the surge. Inverter would have a longer life.
if the 18k eg4 is installed between the meter and the main panel then it should only export when the loads after the inverter are satisfied and after the battery is charged.. if export isn’t allowed then simple, turn it off. Most hybrid inverters have options to do so.. it’s a very common thing to turn off export and should be simple, more so if all the loads are after the inverter, basically all loads offgrid,,, then export isn’t an option at all therefore zero export EG4 wouldn’t even be a topic for a post.

In normal operating mode with the firmware I have (0E0E), when the grid is up the grid relay is connected so the in and out side of the 200A passthrough are connected together and the inverter is generating in parallel of the grid. In this way it's exactly the same as your prior post about an inverter that's connected as just a branch circuit. It still has the same restrictions when the grid is up.

EG4 also has a firmware version where those passthrough relays are disconnected when you have enough solar/batteries for the grid. In that way it's exactly as your referring to in this post. You can't backfeed because you're physically disconnected.

I think that's the beauty of the all in one like the 18kpv - it has so many options to fit so many use cases, many of which haven't yet fully been brought out to the user as a feature but the hardware is perfectly capable of.

 

[1201]

Here's a few hours worth of data from my emporia with the electric dryer turned on about halfway through. The spike over 10kW is the EV charger. The last 5 spikes are the dryer running harder for some reason, idk it's just a timed dry.
I've attached the data in case anyone wants to zoom in or see the rest of my circuits.
It is going slightly negative for a very short period when the dryer is cycling off
Disclaimer: this is just another measurement method and my L1 and L2 are not balanced by several hundred watts. Would be a >10% error to cause this to not actually be exporting, but worth mentioning.
View attachment 162318

Here's a focused view on the last few minutes:
View attachment 162319

Greatest export was 127 watts during that period, it never exported for more than 1s.

Hi. I'm on my phone and haven't been able to open the zip file. What is the blue spike at the start of each dryer heater element activation?

 

[Rusty959]

To clarify. Is this just the stock emporia showing accuracy/clarity better than what comes with a stock Iotawatt? If so I was wrong about emporia

This data came from the emporia. In the UI it has a export to csv option where it emails you a link to the data. I just opened this in excel and plotted the data I cared about.

So yes and no being stock. Slightly more work than just opening up on my cell phone, but still 1s resolution.

 

[Rusty959]

Hi. I'm on my phone and haven't been able to open the zip file. What is the blue spike at the start of each dryer heater element activation?

Blue line is the main CTs. This is exactly what the meter will see. Orange line is my total energy usage. The 18kpv is making up the difference.

So the blue spike is just the time it takes for the 18kpv to ramp up and cover the load.

It's important to note that if I didn't have "fast zero export" enabled it would ramp up much faster and pull less from the grid, but it will also export a tiny bit much more frequently. I didn't graph that as part of this excercise because this thread is already getting too convoluted and we're mostly taking about zero export options here.

 

[1201]

Blue line is the main CTs. This is exactly what the meter will see. Orange line is my total energy usage. The 18kpv is making up the difference.

So the blue spike is just the time it takes for the 18kpv to ramp up and cover the load.

It's important to note that if I didn't have "fast zero export" enabled it would ramp up much faster and pull less from the grid, but it will also export a tiny bit much more frequently. I didn't graph that as part of this excercise because this thread is already getting too convoluted and we're mostly taking about zero export options here.

Sorry, what do you mean by main ct? I see total load in orange but what is the blue graphing? Let me go pull up that zip file on my pc

 

[Rusty959]

Sorry, what do you mean by main ct? I see total load in orange but what is the blue graphing? Let me go pull up that zip file on my pc

that's the total power going in or out of my house. Exactly what the meter reads. the CTs on the mains. Would be here:

 

[1201]

that's the total power going in or out of my house. Exactly what the meter reads. the CTs on the mains. Would be here:
View attachment 162324

ok I think Im undertanding now. the large spikes are the grid powering the large load presumably before the inverter fully takes over supporting the loads? and when the load stops you see tiny downwards spikes showing the spurious/inadvertent export?

 

[1201]

To clarify. Is this just the stock emporia showing accuracy/clarity better than what comes with a stock Iotawatt? If so I was wrong about emporia

indeed. its impressive

 

[Cheap 4-life]

In normal operating mode with the firmware I have (0E0E), when the grid is up the grid relay is connected so the in and out side of the 200A passthrough are connected together and the inverter is generating in parallel of the grid. In this way it's exactly the same as your prior post about an inverter that's connected as just a branch circuit. It still has the same restrictions when the grid is up.

I’m thinking it’s not the “same”. all loads are on the AC output if installed between the meter and main panel. That basically means the inverter is acting as an offgrid inverter because all the loads are after the inverter being powered by the AC output. The AC input should simply be able to be turned into only an input not bidirectional. No relay should need to be closed. Just simply select no export so the input is only an input being used ONLY for charging batteries from the grid if needed. But yes if grid assist is needed or used backfeed could occur. That’s just what happens paralleling power sources for the same loads.
if the inverter (or a different inverter) was installed after the main panel, then to cover all the main panels loads the AC input would need to stay bidirectional to do so. That would mean that there’s always the unavoidable backfeed.. unless all loads were moved to a new critical panel on the AC output but then it’s just like an inverter installed between the meter and main panel..

 

[Cheap 4-life]

indeed. its impressive

It’s not stock emporia. Emails and using excell and plotting stuff etc to get it to Iotawatt clarity/accuracy. You could take iotawatt data and do the same but it’s not necessary because the graphs it comes with are very clear and accurate out of the box. Also the Iotawatt shows the totals of everything for the graph duration right along with the good graphing. And any specific time on any specific day since the iotawatt was installed can be viewed with that accuracy

 

[Mpgrimm2]

It’s not stock emporia. Emails and using excell and plotting stuff etc to get it to Iotawatt clarity/accuracy. You could take iotawatt data and do the same but it’s not necessary because the graphs it comes with are very clear and accurate out of the box. Also the Iotawatt shows the totals of everything for the graph duration right along with the good graphing. And any specific time on any specific day since the iotawatt was installed can be viewed with that accuracy

Is iotawatt available to purchase anymore? Based on website, doesn't seem to be?

 

[houseofancients]

Not everyone is able to get a good export agreement for one reason or another.
If you do not have an agreement, and the POCO insists on absolutely zero export, what then?
It doesn't matter if you "did things right" or not, they have a right to demand ZERO export.
The solar customer also has the right to expect that a unit that advertises zero export will actually have zero export.
If it will not do it, quit claiming it will.
If it back feeds up to 200 watts, just say so plainly in the specs.

Then you need an off-grid inverter..

Full stop

By it's very nature a true hybrid will always backfeed a bit.
The work around is a good CT Installation, and a good amount of constant grid trickle feed ( 200+ watts) , but even then there is -0- chance of completely stopping it.

Point is : either make sure grid is completely disconnect by a breaker/switch or play by the rules

 

[1201]

It’s not stock emporia. Emails and using excell and plotting stuff etc to get it to Iotawatt clarity/accuracy. You could take iotawatt data and do the same but it’s not necessary because the graphs it comes with are very clear and accurate out of the box. Also the Iotawatt shows the totals of everything for the graph duration right along with the good graphing. And any specific time on any specific day since the iotawatt was installed can be viewed with that accuracy

I'll give credit where credit is due. The data is very impressive , even more so when you consider that it's half the price of an iotawatt. The fact that you can drill down and see one second intervals without a lot of smoothing is very useful. I was going to buy a second iotawatt but I think I may buy this instead

 

[Quattrohead]

Just to clear up the Emporia thing, it sends data out every second to their monitoring website. You can watch circuits live, see your coffee pot cycling etc. The website graphing is not too good but you can get the general idea.
You can get an email with the CSV file that has per second/day and month data.....very nice.
They used to allow real time data extraction but it was causing too much load as people found ways to auto suck it out.
You can also hack in after market firmware to convert it to local monitoring.

 

[Crowz]

Ive been very happy with the emporia. Also being able to call it up on my phone when not home rocks. Having it notify me when the wife forgets to turn stove off or when it notified me when the water pipe burst from the hot water heater was awesome. All you have to do is set warnings for when something uses more power than it should to have it warn you of problems.

It paid for itself in the first month of buying it from the power I saved finding things to cut off that were not needed. I would definitely buy it again in a heartbeat.

 

[derbuechsenmacher]

This has me a bit confused (newbie here). I’m planning on a small system for my workshop. I want to use solar and battery when it is available and have the grid for power (charge batteries, provide power) when not. In this type of setup, would the grid see any back feed (I do already have a grid tied net metering setup - no batteries), so I’m thinking that a small back feed would not even show up to the power company, as they already see the existing system)

 

[1201]

This has me a bit confused (newbie here). I’m planning on a small system for my workshop. I want to use solar and battery when it is available and have the grid for power (charge batteries, provide power) when not. In this type of setup, would the grid see any back feed (I do already have a grid tied net metering setup - no batteries), so I’m thinking that a small back feed would not even show up to the power company, as they already see the existing system)

Nope. That's more of an off grid setup