Off topic, EV vehicle opinions…

[JWLV]

Also, there doesn't seem to be ANY kind of coherent plan to beef up the necessary grid charging infrastructure that will be necessary to support the scheduled mandates.

You are absolutely correct. There was no plan to beef up the grid charging infrastructure. To have a plan, you need money. For an infrastructure that size, you need a lot of money. No money has been allocated until just recently. It took a large group of people to get together and actually work out a deal so that it benefits everyone.

To put it in perspective, imagine there were no interstate freeways. Everyone would complain that we can't drive from this state to that state. You can complain and complain, but until a large sum of money is allocated, you can't even begin to come up with a plan. So if a large group of people came together and ironed out a deal to benefit everyone, only then can a plan even begin to materialize. A project to create an interstate freeway infrastructure is huge. It would take a lot of money, a lot of time, a lot of work, a lot of everything. It's not something that will happen overnight. It won't even happen in 5 years. It might take decades.

Government mandates. That's laughable. Whenever a government mandate is going to change something significant, it will be delayed and pushed back farther and farther. Remember the switch from analog TV to digital TV? How many times was it pushed back? I'm sure a lot of people resented being forced to buy a shiny new flat screen LCD TV that they absolutely love now. What do people think about it now? Also remember there were subsidies for people to get a free converter box (similar to a cable box) so that people can still use their old CRT televisions.

One day, maybe 20 years from now, we might all look back think "why didn't we go EV sooner?" like we do today and think "wow, I can't believe 19" CRT TVs were the biggest screens you can get with beautiful 480 lines of resolution." Today, how many people even have a 32" or smaller TV? It could flop completely and people would say, "wow, I can't believe how much money we wasted on EV technology" when some cars that run on water becomes a reality. You'll never know until you try.

Sometimes change happens due to market demands. CDs/DVDs happened because the market wanted something better than cassette tapes and VHS tapes. No mandates needed. Sometimes it needs a little nudge from the government. Are policy makers always going to be right? Absolutely not. In fact, they're wrong most of the time. But that's how innovation happens. Some things are a no-brainer and gets mass adoption immediately. Some things will need a nudge.

 

[JWLV]

I think most of the people who are buying the Rivian just want to ride around being cool .... probably afraid to put anything in the back for fear they get a scratch. I guess that's fine if that's what you want in a vehicle.
I actually don't live too far from the Rivian plant .... Hope they succeed because they are good for the local economy.

But, I totally agree that everyone has a different need .... That's why the projected mandates are so ridiculous.

I looked at Rivian. I wanted one. But it is way, way, waaaaayyyyy out of my price range.

 

[42OhmsPA]

Ofcourse not, we are the ones subsidizing your hobbies.
But worry not, pay per mile taxes for EV owners are coming and so is energy rationing (Enjoy your smart meter).

https://www.autoweek.com/news/a45222372/ev-mileage-tax-details/

I'm buying one to charge strictly off solar and commute for free. Any updated info on the per mile taxes?
I'll stick with combustion for long range trips, hauling the quad, coal, lumber, solar panels, etc. I don't feel electric trucks are ready to replace ice as real trucks, yet.
I hope Edison Motors succeeds so I can convert my truck, maybe I'll even add a train horn

We live in an imperfect world.

What fun would it be if it were perfect?

 

[Bob B]

You are absolutely correct. There was no plan to beef up the grid charging infrastructure. To have a plan, you need money. For an infrastructure that size, you need a lot of money. No money has been allocated until just recently. It took a large group of people to get together and actually work out a deal so that it benefits everyone.

To put it in perspective, imagine there were no interstate freeways. Everyone would complain that we can't drive from this state to that state. You can complain and complain, but until a large sum of money is allocated, you can't even begin to come up with a plan. So if a large group of people came together and ironed out a deal to benefit everyone, only then can a plan even begin to materialize. A project to create an interstate freeway infrastructure is huge. It would take a lot of money, a lot of time, a lot of work, a lot of everything. It's not something that will happen overnight. It won't even happen in 5 years. It might take decades.

Guess I disagree with at a little ..... Well, maybe a lot.

Seems to me there should be a plan first. A logical progression of what must happen in what sequence in order to achieve your goal.
Going into panic mode and making a bunch of mandates for EV production and purchase prior to having a plan to actually make them feasible ..... to me is insane.

 

[D71]

If you are for the America First agenda, then who cares what China is doing in Africa. Who cares what happens to Ukraine. Who cares if China invades Taiwan. Not our problem. Don't spend American dollars on things that are not in America, right?

to a point wherever those blacks were being beaten by Chinese and what not is not our concern if you dive into it. That place is not America so putting our nose in foreign countries has not worked well so far. We are deeper in debt and more unsafe than ever.

I am a Nationalist...America 1st. Where are you from? If you are a foreigner ..... Do we give your country money?

Far as am concerned Israel and Ukraine should never have been funded.

You are absolutely correct. There was no plan to beef up the grid charging infrastructure. To have a plan, you need money. For an infrastructure that size, you need a lot of money. No money has been allocated until just recently. It took a large group of people to get together and actually work out a deal so that it benefits everyone.

To put it in perspective, imagine there were no interstate freeways. Everyone would complain that we can't drive from this state to that state. You can complain and complain, but until a large sum of money is allocated, you can't even begin to come up with a plan. So if a large group of people came together and ironed out a deal to benefit everyone, only then can a plan even begin to materialize. A project to create an interstate freeway infrastructure is huge. It would take a lot of money, a lot of time, a lot of work, a lot of everything. It's not something that will happen overnight. It won't even happen in 5 years. It might take decades.

Interstates and such came about because of the autobahn and supply routes for WAR.

As stated in early post we will move in 10 years or so. We could have invested in ev back in 1800s but standard oil got their money greased right hands - filled right pockets on both sides. you want to spend more money for by govt vs private business. hahahhaa failure in progress. sorry but govt can't run a toy train set around Christmas tree.

They will waste the hell out of the money like most govt projects MORE theft and corruption... every State has that interstate roadway work that never ends Been all my life still on going in some places. Never completed always slow downs and road work. snicker. Some ppl just never seem to understand how to milk bilk the govt cash cow I'm a bull so they can start milking me.....for a change. send in the pretty women....real women get my approval or get no more money. Wouldn't you like a spy like Monica giving bj? you can have a man if you like no shame or a man dressed as a woman even. hmmmm... I really don't like govt sex....robbery. they love it though.

I have always been mostly my own island. We need a nation doing the same. Independence means others will be trying to take from us even more. So can see why it is avoided. I remember when we tried raise World Standards, we lowered ourselves in the process. takes 2 year or 4 year college degree to get what hs use to get our ppl for education.

 

[ksmithaz1]

I also think that the excessive government intervention creates most of the polarization we see here around EV's, which makes me sad. A few tax incentives to kickstart a nascent industry is not always a bad result, though as a libertarian I find it distasteful. Forcing change at high rates creates blowback that we are starting to see, that will create animosity to EV's that may take a long time to dissipate. Musk proved there was a market for the technology, and it was growing organically quite well. Even the EA/VW settlement was not a horrible idea, it has allowed travel coverage for EV owners, albeit much like looking for fuel in places going cross-country in the 1930's and 40's (even up to the late 50's early 60's). At this point the kick is done. The industry will thrive on it's own, if they would just leave it be, and the products will improve. State and local governments will adapt to the tax ramifications, and the tech will gradually gain wider and wider adoption.

Oddly in the early, early, days most women preferred electric to gas powered vehicles. They were more trouble free, no smelly fuels, no crank starting, etc. Obviously without adequate battery tech and rechargable batteries, eventually the gas powered vehicles took over and the tech improved, electric starters, better fueling options, ... As the battery tech improves I think many of these same advantages will begin to sway general public opinion. It's kind of funny but I've been following EV's for a long time, over and over, the same stories are told even with todays EV's. Once the ladies start driving the EV they don't want to give it back. It's anecdotal, but a repeating theme, I bought this EV and my wife didn't want to go near it, 6 months later she won't let me drive it.

I had a discussion around 'What if it breaks down? That would be really bad with an electric,' Well, breaks down how? Flat tire? any car can get a flat, make the call we have cell phones now. Blown radiator hose or heater hose? Hole in the radiator? Popped a freeze plug? Water pump? Broken timing chain? Bad fuel pump? Clogged fuel line? Bad injector? Leaky fuel rail? Road debris cracks the oil pan? Dead alternator? Dead 12v battery? This can/has been frustrating in EV's as well, but most issues are now resolved by firmware activating the buck converter when it goes low. Electrical problem? I'm going with the electrical system being worse on an ICE, the electrical system and sensors wrapped around a modern ICE engine are far, far more complex. Electrics do deal with stuff like regen,and monitoring power usage. How about the automatic transmission failing and spraying fluid all over the ground as you coast to a stop. Not to mention soft failures like limping home after unplugging the wire to a bad MAF, or duct taping a vacuum line keeping the car from idling, broken chokes, blah, blah. Every one of these things has happened to me some more than once.

There are way fewer moving parts in an EV, and far fewer random hoses and wires snaked into cubbies in a hot engine compartment. If your A/C compressor siezes and locks the clutch, in an EV, you pop a fuse, keep going. In an ICE you might snap a serpentine belt, after it screams at you for a bit. This happened to me in my Olds 88, driving thru Texas just outside Midland. That was a fun day. The EV achilles heel is the traction battery systems they just need to improve a bit more.

 

[JWLV]

I have always been mostly my own island. We need a nation doing the same. Independence means others will be trying to take from us even more. So can see why it is avoided. I remember when we tried raise World Standards, we lowered ourselves in the process. takes 2 year or 4 year college degree to get what hs use to get our ppl for education.

This is where our opinions are going to differ. In this age, we absolutely cannot be our own island. Our quality of life will suffer tremendously if we are not part of the global stage. Perhaps it could have been done a hundred years ago. But today, it would a disaster for us to close ourselves off. It'll be bad for us and bad for our allies. But we'll likely suffer the most.

 

[JWLV]

Oddly in the early, early, days most women preferred electric to gas powered vehicles. They were more trouble free, no smelly fuels, no crank starting, etc. Obviously without adequate battery tech and rechargable batteries, eventually the gas powered vehicles took over and the tech improved, electric starters, better fueling options, ... As the battery tech improves I think many of these same advantages will begin to sway general public opinion. It's kind of funny but I've been following EV's for a long time, over and over, the same stories are told even with todays EV's. Once the ladies start driving the EV they don't want to give it back. It's anecdotal, but a repeating theme, I bought this EV and my wife didn't want to go near it, 6 months later she won't let me drive it.

HAHAHA! My wife is exactly the same!
At first she was afraid to drive it because it's different.

Now she has her own Tesla. I've been following EVs as well for a long time, starting from when GM made the GEM.

 

[ksmithaz1]

Guess I disagree with at a little ..... Well, maybe a lot.

Seems to me there should be a plan first. A logical progression of what must happen in what sequence in order to achieve your goal.
Going into panic mode and making a bunch of mandates for EV production and purchase prior to having a plan to actually make them feasible ..... to me is insane.

Musk had a plan. He set up fast charging stations all over the US as he built out production. Tesla has some very innovative tech at their DCFC's. He also mapped where he had access to the appropriate infrastructure and sized accordingly. We see a lot of the more rural EA stations in Wal-Marts, because they had minimum available power specs before they would build a facility, thus the transmission infrastructure around Wal-marts is capable of handling a handful of DCFC's. Further they tend to be located near major highways. This does not solve the overall production issue, but nobody is going to build out production for demand that doesn't exist without someone else footing the bill. Thus allowing the EV market to grow organically would slowly create demand pressure, and slowly increase production to meet that demand, without requiring a bunch of government largesse. Reality is most charging will not be done during peak demand. Most people fill their gas tanks close to home, on the way out or in, and they will charge their EV's in the evenings at home when demand is generally lower.

Unless you live in California, then you are just screwed no matter the car or type.

 

[Hedges]

This is where our opinions are going to differ. In this age, we absolutely cannot be our own island. Our quality of life will suffer tremendously if we are not part of the global stage. Perhaps it could have been done a hundred years ago. But today, it would a disaster for us to close ourselves off. It'll be bad for us and bad for our allies. But we'll likely suffer the most.

With all the resources of the US in North America, we should be able to have a great life without buying, selling, or meddling anywhere else in the world. We could also have imports and exports.

Greatest threat is that we are invaded by someone else greedy for resources or power. So we need a powerful military capability. Leveraging capabilities from elsewhere could boost that.

However, exporting capabilities and then relinquishing them so we are not longer independent, on an island with all we need, will/has left us at risk. We have little high-tech IC or shipbuilding industry. Those will be key to war and defense.

 

[ksmithaz1]

I've also said in the EV forums, Charging stations need to be more friendly. Four phallic symbols with cords in the dark back lot of a shopping center is decidedly sub-optimal. Starbucks or Dunkin or somebody should really capitalize on this, take the station 1/4 mile off the path, put up 8 DCFC's next to a donut/sandwich/coffee shop. Plug in, grab the laptop, cup of Joe & a croissant at a table for a 1/2 hour to an hour. Wal-Mart is not too bad if it's open. They ususaly have a subway or mcd's or something.

 

[Bob B]

Musk had a plan. He set up fast charging stations all over the US as he built out production. Tesla has some very innovative tech at their DCFC's. He also mapped where he had access to the appropriate infrastructure and sized accordingly. We see a lot of the more rural EA stations in Wal-Marts, because they had minimum available power specs before they would build a facility, thus the transmission infrastructure around Wal-marts is capable of handling a handful of DCFC's. Further they tend to be located near major highways. This does not solve the overall production issue, but nobody is going to build out production for demand that doesn't exist without someone else footing the bill. Thus allowing the EV market to grow organically would slowly create demand pressure, and slowly increase production to meet that demand, without requiring a bunch of government largesse. Reality is most charging will not be done during peak demand. Most people fill their gas tanks close to home, on the way out or in, and they will charge their EV's in the evenings at home when demand is generally lower.

Unless you live in California, then you are just screwed no matter the car or type.

I agree that Musk did have a plan .... and it was working. A lot of other vehicle Mfg are trying to catch up by utilizing the charging network Tesla created.
He just fired a bunch of people in the charging division for some reason ..... Does anyone know why he did that?
I saw he made a post on Twitter about putting more focus on maintaining the existing charging network. Maybe he went to charge his Cyber Truck and had a bad charging experience?
He seems to have no problem firing people he doesn't think are performing to expectation.

In my use case, I will probably be charging almost exclusively at home and using a different vehicle for longer trips.

I was talking more about the government mandating in spite of not having a plan.

 

[BKY2003]

I just wish they would enforce this law in Fl.

(3)(a) It is unlawful for a person to stop, stand, or park a vehicle that is not capable of using an electrical recharging station within any parking space specifically designated for charging an electric vehicle.

It gives unneeded range anxiety because so many people park in the EV charging spaces. I won't drive my EV more than what I can charge at home for this reason.

 

[D71]

I’d be driving a hyundai ioniq 5 right now instead of the 2024 rav4 ice. I paid cash don’t like usury….for extended high interest loans.

Hyundai were screwing ppl over bad battery packs and toyota rav4 hybrid were screwing ppl over what appears to been a misapplied motor housing for the electrical cable to motor. So…., ICE.

I was a fan of Hyundai even though they have had problems over the years. I liked that Ioniq5 Test drove one. The stories-actual accounts of Hyundai acting stupid and wanting to charge more for battery pack to replace failed one is not acceptable. Is that customer support acceptable to anyone else …car was still under warranty. They should honor warranty. No honor - no customer. Hyundai went for throw away cars in 1980’s to decent car. Owned 3 of their ICE. Would owned Ioniq 5 but they were not being observant of good customer support and quality care for fixing the mistakes. My last Hyundai also had bad paint known problem for pearl white made by BASF for several brands. Hyundai refused to repair paint. No 3rd strike went to Toyota.

We could very well done much better being our own Island STRONG MILITARY REQUIRED closed borders controlled immigration.
We’d still have allies ….

 

[Bob B]

I just wish they would enforce this law in Fl.

(3)(a) It is unlawful for a person to stop, stand, or park a vehicle that is not capable of using an electrical recharging station within any parking space specifically designated for charging an electric vehicle.

It gives unneeded range anxiety because so many people park in the EV charging spaces. I won't drive my EV more than what I can charge at home for this reason.

Wonder if those people would think twice about doing that next time if the valve stems disappeared from a couple of their tires? They'd be blocking a little longer this time, but maybe their last time.

Not that I'd ever do anything like that.

 

[svetz]

EV Sales picking up in the U.S. & E.U.​

Looks like EV registrations are picking up in the EU... (ref)

​

This reference, with March's registration numbers, show new EV car sales are up...

 

[svetz]

 

[aenyc]

Ford Slashing Prices And Increasing Incentives On Electric Mach-E, F-150 Lightning​

It's not just Tesla...the increasing saturation of the electric vehicle market continues driving down prices as manufacturers strive to remain competitive.

At the same, manufacturers are starting to realize that hybrids present a more cost-effective option than battery electric vehicles due to lower initial purchase prices and the ability to save on fuel without being wholly dependent on charging infrastructure.

Maybe that's why, shortly after reducing the prices of its 2023 Mustang Mach-E in Canada, Ford has cut the MSRP across all trims in the U.S. to respond to softer EV demand, offering additional lease discounts and introducing new incentives for the F-150 Lightning, according to Electrek.


The Mustang Mach-E, an all-electric SUV that debuted over four years ago, has become highly popular, ranking as the second-best-selling electric SUV in the U.S. in 2023. Following a pause in orders last year, Ford resumed sales in May with reduced prices, starting at $42,995. This move came right before the company announced a similar price reduction in Canada, marking a continuous effort to make the Mach-E more accessible.



A spokesperson for Ford said:

The Mustang Mach-E is America’s No.2 EV SUV in 2023 and Ford is America’s No.2 EV brand. We are adjusting pricing for MY23 models as we continue to adapt to the market to achieve the optimal mix of sales growth and customer value.

Ford also highlighted that lessees of the 2023 Mustang Mach-E through Ford Credit qualify for a $7,500 cash incentive, which complements the $7,500 federal tax credit for EV leases that Ford extends to its clients. This means that U.S. customers could see discounts up to $15,000 off the MSRP when leasing a Mach-E. Additionally, eligible purchasers have the option of 0% financing for a period of 72 months.

Source: Electrek
The move away from EV investment and price cuts marks a sea change in attitude for EVs. As we noted earlier this month, the latest example of this was General Motors, who posted better than expected earnings earlier this month but also said that it plans on changing its product lineup to include more hybrid vehicles, drifting away from pure electric vehicles.

CEO Mary Barra said on the earnings call: “Let me be clear, GM remains committed to eliminating tailpipe emissions from our light-duty vehicles by 2035, but, in the interim, deploying plug-in technology in strategic segments will deliver some of the environment or environmental benefits of EVs as the nation continues to build this charging infrastructure.”

Recall, a report from Consumer Reports last year found that electric vehicles have almost 80% more problems and are "generally less reliable" than conventional internal combustion engine cars.

 

[aenyc]

Ford Lightning Price Cut "Sends Shockwaves Through EV Market"​

Shares of Rivian Automotive, Lucid Group, and Tesla Motors moved lower during the cash session in the US after Ford Motor announced price cuts for its electric F-150 Lightning pickup truck amid concerns about sliding demand across the EV industry. Meanwhile, an EV price war between the automakers rages on as unprofitable EV startups struggle to survive.

Let's begin with a Bloomberg report that says Ford is reducing the price of its Lightning pickup truck by up to 7.5%. Earlier this year, the company paused production of the truck and is set to resume production later in the month

The largest price cut is on the Flash extended-range model, where customers could expect to save $5,500. The model now starts at around $67,995. Ford told Bloomberg that price cuts will help it "adapt to the market to achieve the optimal mix of sales growth and customer value."




The downshift in EV demand has led Chief Executive Officer Jim Farley to reevaluate Ford's EV strategy by reducing spending on battery-powered vehicles by $12 billion, delaying the launch of various models, and beginning to offer an expanded lineup on gas-electric hybrid propulsion vehicles across North America.

Thousands of auto dealers nationwide recently warned the 'climate change warriors' in the White House: the 2030 EV push is backfiring.

"Currently, there are many excellent battery electric vehicles available for consumers to purchase. These vehicles are ideal for many people, and we believe their appeal will grow over time. The reality, however, is that electric vehicle demand today is not keeping up with the large influx of BEVs arriving at our dealerships prompted by the current regulations. BEVs are stacking up on our lots," the dealers said.
They warned: "Already, electric vehicles are stacking up on our lots which is our best indicator of customer demand in the marketplace."

Many consumers do not embrace the government's and corporate America's forced EV adoption schemes. This is now entirely backfiring, as even Tesla's first-quarter deliveries lagged behind expectations, which may indicate more price cuts are coming.



"Reports of Ford reducing prices for the F-150 Lightning EV are sending shockwaves through the EV market, particularly affecting Rivian and Lucid," Bloomberg Intelligence analyst Steve Man said.

Man said, "Both startups are facing challenges that could be exacerbated by another round of EV price cuts, potentially eroding their profit margins and cash reserves at a time when they need to conserve cash."

Shares of Rivian dropped the most, down 6.5% in early afternoon trade. Shares of Lucid were down around 2.5%, and Tesla was flat on the session.



Recall analyst Adam Jonas at Morgan Stanley recently suggested consolidation is coming to the industry:



What a turbulent time for the EV space... Someone tell Biden to tell Powell ... moar rate cuts, please, to reflate the imploding green bubble.

 

[aenyc]

Rolling Disaster: Ford Halts 2024 F-150 Lightning Shipments​

Automotive News was the first to report Ford Motor Co. halted shipments of all 2024 F-150 Lightning electric pickup trucks for an undisclosed quality control issue just weeks after slashing production volumes for the EV model due to sliding demand.

A Ford spokesperson did not explain the reasons behind the quality check, but shipments of Lightnings have been halted since Feb. 9. Even with shipments paused, production of the Lightnings continues at the Rouge Electric Vehicle Center in Dearborn, Michigan.

"We expect to ramp up shipments in the coming weeks as we complete thorough launch quality checks to ensure these new F-150s meet our high standards and delight customers," company spokeswoman Emma Bergg wrote in a statement.

Last month, Ford announced plans to slash the Lightning production in April "to achieve the optimal balance of production, sales growth and profitability."



The automaker (and many others, like Mercedes Benz) is recalibrating its electric vehicle strategy as the Biden administration plans to downshift the EV transition as demand plummets.

Thousands of auto dealers nationwide recently warned the 'climate change warriors' in the White House: the 2030 EV push is backfiring.

"Currently, there are many excellent battery electric vehicles available for consumers to purchase. These vehicles are ideal for many people, and we believe their appeal will grow over time. The reality, however, is that electric vehicle demand today is not keeping up with the large influx of BEVs arriving at our dealerships prompted by the current regulations. BEVs are stacking up on our lots," the dealers said.
They warned: "Already, electric vehicles are stacking up on our lots which is our best indicator of customer demand in the marketplace."

A recent note by RBC analyst Tom Narayan said the EV slowdown is far from over:

"Key takeaways thus far from earnings season are that the EV slowdown is not showing any evidence of an inflection, Level 4 autonomy headwinds continue to persist, and fears over supplier inventory overbuild are likely overblown.

Analyst Adam Jonas at Morgan Stanley suggested consolidation is coming to the industry:



Given that Biden's 2030 EV mandate is in full collapse, the downturn in the EV space will likely continue through the second half of this year.