Cost for utility transformer installation?

[Hedges]

What has the utility company charged you for a transformer installation or upgrade on their side of the meter?
How flexible/negotiable were they?

I have a house in Oakland, CA. with 100A service.
To support the PV install I want to do, and for more loads like electric heat (presently all gas), shop tools, EV, I need to upgrade.
I observed HV 3-phase two poles away from the house, stepped down to 120/240V split-phase one pole away (but apparently I'm fed from transformer on other side of block and wires going around the block.)

So I'm inquiring if PG&E can give me 120/208Y service.
I think I'll use a Square-D panel with 225A busbar, 150A main breaker. 120% rule would allow 120A PV breaker, more than I need for PV but allows more current draw by a battery-backup system.
(200A main breaker and 70A PV would also work, requires more from utility. Don't know if they would need bigger transformer or size for expected load not breaker size. But maybe no one other than me will use it?)

So far PG&E has received my request an visited to observe pole and wire locations. Indicated it could be a substantial cost to me. But also said even split-phase upgrade for me might require larger transformer.

With encouragement for consumers to install electric heating, the utility is going to need to upgrade transformers, possibly wires, even for split-phase. I'd like the to at least cost-share 3-phase connection.

 

[Ampster]

I think I'll use a Square-D panel with 225A busbar, 150A main breaker. 120% rule would allow 120A PV breaker, more than I need for PV but allows more current draw by a battery-backup system.

That seems like a cost effective solution. It may be the most viable if you are trying to get under the NEM 3.0 deadline in April. I upgraded from a 100 Amp Zinsco panel to a 2000 Amp solar ready panel and had to move the location 36 inches because of its proximity to a gas meter. That meant a new drop which cost less than $100 just for the application. If I had needed a transformer I would have spent the money to derate the new panel. Interestingly, my electrician tried to use the like for like rules to see if we could just do a new 100 Amp panel and keep the original location. They would not go for it. He had good connections with PG&E since his father in law retired from PG&E.

 

[Hedges]

I think NEM 2.0/3.0 deadline is just paper.
But the paper says to list inverter model and single vs. 3-phase. I'm trying to clarify which kind of service it will be for. Figure more headaches if I list 3-phase inverter for single-phase service (which I've already prototyped, but requires Sunny Island operating; would rather go straight to grid.)

PG&E (per written rules) allows same old location too close to gas meter if the Zinsco panel is on list of fire hazards models.
My gas meter is > 3' away.

Split-phase panels I can find around $200 or so. 3-phase will cost me $2000 or so.
Schneider/Square-D has discontinued the models with heavier busbar, smaller main breaker. Without that option I think they have 100A busbar for 100A breaker, 125A, 150A, 225A.
I think I'll be buying a panel with 225A busbar and convertible main breaker of amperage I don't want, and buy the breaker I want separately.
They do have convertible lugs panel. But if photos are correct, it is shipped with bezel having cutout for the size/location breaker that split-phase uses. NOT with a cutout to fit the 3-phase breakers!
On top of that, older and newer series each have specific main breaker models required.

This is gonna cost me!

"Convertable main lugs", but main breaker cutout shown doesn't match 3-phase breakers:

https://www.se.com/us/en/product/QO342ML2RB/load-center-qo-3-phase-42-spaces-42-circuits-225a-convertible-main-lugs-nema3r-csa-ul/?parent-subcategory-id=6405&range=7249-qo-load-centers&filter=business-4-low-voltage-products-and-systems&selected-node-id=12367806914

What I want:

QO342MQ225RB150 - Load center, QO, 3 phase, 42 spaces, 42 circuits, 150A convertible main breaker, NEMA3R, QDL, UL | Schneider Electric USA

Schneider Electric USA. QO342MQ225RB150 - Load center, QO, 3 phase, 42 spaces, 42 circuits, 150A convertible main breaker, NEMA3R, QDL, UL.

www.se.com

 

[Browse]

I wrote a letter to the CEO of my electric company when our block was experiencing frequent outages during summertime heat waves. It turns out that most people had not yet converted to natural gas for heating and cooking and still ran large electric appliances. We had 11 homes sharing a single 25k transformer. They ended up replacing it with a 75k transformer after I sent him a copy of a 3 year old newspaper article with him quoted as planning to replace all 25k transformers within the next 18 months.

In my opinion, the electric company should install whatever service is best suited for their customers, free of charge.

 

[Hedges]

The PG&E guy who came to visit said he thought it might cost me $15k
I said, "That's twice the cost of a transformer"

Heard back later from him, "Your loads don't meet the requirements for 3-phase service."
I asked, "3-phase motors don't qualify?"

He said, "minimum 75 kVA"
That would be 200A, 120/208Y.

I looked up PG&E documents, found the Green Book

https://www.pge.com/pge_global/common/pdfs/services/building-and-renovation/greenbook-manual-online/greenbook_manual.pdf

"If PG&E determines that a single residential or nonresidential building or structure justifies a 75-kVA transformer at 120/208 V, or a 5 horsepower or larger motor at 120/240 V for an overhead service, then installing three-phase service is an option for the applicant."

I pointed this out and requested that PG&E proceed with 3-phase, so he agreed I was eligible.

If they gave me 120/240V high-leg delta, I would use a 240 delta to 120/208Y transformer.

I was passed off to someone else, who called me.
It could take 12 to 18 months to get done. (OK)
The cost would be $150,000.00

Involves shutting off power to neighbors. Bucket truck and crew $25,000/day. Would use two trucks. And take 2 days.

She said one customer did go for it. New house, with elevator.

I said for $150k I could put in solar, inverters, batteries, and disconnect from PG&E entirely.

So, 3-phase service is off the table.

I'll put in papers for NEM connection agreement, and do a split-phase upgrade when the time comes.
225A or 200A busbars, 150A or 200A main breaker.
That would allow 70A, 90A, or 120A PV breaker. Not that I'd have so much PV, but supports higher current to/from battery inverter and loads.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

I said for $150k I could put in solar, inverters, batteries, and disconnect from PG&E entirely.

Which is exactly what I would do..

 

[Ampster]

PG&E (per written rules) allows same old location too close to gas meter if the Zinsco panel is on list of fire hazards models.

I have seen two different interpretations from PG&E. In one case they allowed a 125 Amp replacement, calling it "like for like". Two years later I had to move my meter three feet because they would not accept a 125 Amp panel as a like for like replacement. Both cases involved old Zinsco panels directly above the gas meter. It was also the same electrical contractor in both cases. He was fairly well connected to the field guys at PG&E so I did not protest. The new location enabled me to do the cutover seamlessly and there was no extra charge from PG&E for the new drop from the pole which was three feet longer.

 

[Hedges]

I just filled out the PG&E .pdf forms and electronically signed for NEM 2.0 agreement.
Then I went to submit on-line, and instead of just accepting those forms, the web page walked me through re-entering all the same data. Problem I ran into was pull-down menu of inverter models only listed current products, not all the UL-1741-SA compliant models on CEC website.
I have 30 kW Sunny TriPower. Only options were newer model 33kW and up. Could not advance to the next page without selecting one.
So, that is what I did. Plus uploaded .pdf forms as additional documents. And listed inverter on one-line diagram, with a note that it is correct one and menu option selected was not.

About 14kW PTC of PV panels, and actual inverter is 98% while other model is 97.5% efficient, trivial difference in output.

We'll see what happens.

What I really expect them to choke on is 277/480Y 3-phase inverter vs. 120/240V split-phase service.
The diagram shows "Electronic phase converter 3x SI-5048US". That connects to grid by relay, allowing TriPower to see and respond to voltage and frequency shifts.

 

[Hedges]

NEM deficiency notice:

"The inverter (Inverter Make / Inverter Model) shows as a 1/3 Phase while the transformer and meter type is a 1/3 phase. Please reply and confirm if this is correct, or if the equipment phases match."

My response:

"Yes, that is correct. I have split-phase service from PG&E and will be using a 3-phase Rule-21 compliant inverter, which is on the CEC list.

I had requested service upgrade to 3-phase, but PG&E ended up saying that would cost $150,000. There is 12kV (?) 3-phase on a pole 200' away, so I thought just a transformer on the adjacent pole and wires. It was so close I could almost touch it ...

As the single-line diagram shows, I will be using 3x Sunny Island 5048US for phase conversion. It connects by relay to the utility grid, passing through frequency and voltage so Sunny TriPower STP30000TL-US-10 can respond according to Rule 21. The additional Sunny Island create 3rd phase so TriPower operates. It also will supply my shop tools. Since PG&E wouldn't give me three-phase service affordably :^( "

Wish me luck.

 

[Hedges]

Feedback from PG&E:

"Thank you for the provided email. We updated the inverter on the application to show the SMA America - STP30000TL-US-10 [480V], however the inverter does not meet the requirements for JUN20 Smart Inverter Compliance:"

"Interconnection applications received starting 6/22/2020 are required to use Smart Inverters that have Phase II Communications, and Phase III - Function 1, 2, 3 & 8 solar smart inverters on their “Solar Equipment Lists” website, as indicated with a “Y” or “N” in the column labeled “UL 1741 SA Disable Permit Service Limit Active Power SA17-SA18”, “Common Smart Inverter Profile Conformance CSIP” and “Monitor Key Data Scheduling Attestation” on their “Grid Support Inverter Lists”"

Turns out the CEC website doesn't display those columns. You have to download spreadsheet to see them.
The older model TriPower I have doesn't have those additional features (at least not certified to CEC), but later model 33kW to 50kW do.
Because it was UL 1741SA Rule-21 I thought it met the requirements.

Solar Equipment List - CA Energy Commission

solarequipment.energy.ca.gov

I've told them to switch it two 2x SB7.7-1SP-US-41 [240V]

"A revised Building Permit for the replacement or a letter from the Building Department approving the replacement without a revised or new building permit. Check with the Building Department on options for re-inspections and revised building permits."

The application requested a signed-off building permit. I've inquired whether a building permit is required for reservation (prior to April 14th), or only for approval to connect.

 

[zanydroid]

I have seen two different interpretations from PG&E. In one case they allowed a 125 Amp replacement, calling it "like for like". Two years later I had to move my meter three feet because they would not accept a 125 Amp panel as a like for like replacement.

They relaxed MSP replacement rules in September, you should be able to replace grandfathered MSP in violation of the gas setback, as long as it's not in super egregious violation (like, practically on top of the gas). Greenbook has a clear picture explaining the new allowance.

 

[Ampster]

They relaxed MSP replacement rules in September, you should be able to replace grandfathered MSP in violation of the gas setback, as long as it's not in super egregious violation (like, practically on top of the gas).

Too late, I replaced the MSP. It was on top of the gas meter and I actually got it done at a reasonable price during the solar install in August 2021.

 

[zanydroid]

Awesome. The new MSP replacement rules matters a lot more for underground service like what I have since PG&E has some rules about not splicing the service conductors, and you have to modify the conduit or dig it up.

 

[Hedges]

I am Reserved!
(for Oakland; Redwood City system is essentially the same but without an excursion through 3-phase design first.)

Feedback from PG&E:

Hello,

Thank you for your email. I have updated the equipment, please review the equipment listed below and confirm it now matches what you plan to install.

Equipment

	Make​	Model​	Qty​
System 1
AC Disconnect	Square D	D323NRB	1
Inverter	SMA America	SB7.7-1SP-US-41 [240V][SI1-JUN20]	2
PV Modules	REC Solar	REC330TP3M	48

NEM 2 eligibility is based on application date. This project will remain under the NEM 2 tariff unless the application requires a withdraw, we do not receive a finalized building permit before the cutoff date of 4/15/26, or other major deficiencies occur, then Permission to Operate (PTO) cannot be granted and NEM 2 eligibility will be lost.



If you require additional assistance, please contact the Solar Customer Service Center at 877-743-4112 Monday to Friday 7 AM to 6 PM to speak with a live representative.



Thank you,
Travis, SNEM Supervisor,

on Behalf of Electric Grid Interconnection Team

 

[Hedges]

Your solar application is NEM2 eligible​ ​

​

Dear Valued Customers and Contractors,​ This message applies to any application submitted before the April 15, 2023 NEM2 deadline. Your solar application is currently being considered for Net Energy Metering 2 (NEM2) status.​ There is no need to call for confirmation of NEM2 eligibility.​

Contractor steps to maintain NEM2 eligibility:​ ​ •​ If there are follow up questions regarding your application, respond to inquiries (usually by email) from PG&E regarding your NEM2 application. •​ If there is a deficiency notice, resolve the deficiency (other than a missing building permit) within one year to retain NEM2 eligibility. •​ Do not make any changes to your application unless you are correcting a deficiency. •​ The system must be installed and the final inspection clearance/building permit must be submitted to PG&E before April 15, 2026. ​

Please note: We have received a high volume of customer and contractor requests.​ •​ Customers with additional questions: Consult with your Solar installer. •​ Contractors with additional questions: Communicate via the corresponding email channel. We will communicate as timely as possible.​

PG&E’s Interconnection Team​

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[Hedges]

Since I don't feel like paying PG&E $150k to give me 3-phase service (which they would likely count as an asset on the books, allowing them to keep 8% profit on remaining value each year as they depreciate it) ...

I'm simply upgrading 100A service to 200A, still 120/240V split-phase.
I'll hang a new meter & breaker box on the wall next to existing one.

This main breaker has no busbar, no 120% rule applies. I'll use Polaris to fan out to multiple sub-panels and safety switches.



PG&E's involvement should be just clipping wires off old box, crimping to the new pigtails I leave hanging.
Or more likely, hanging a new set of wires from the pole 50' away, to handle 200A.

(I wonder how big a breaker I could install before they have to change the wire?)

Just competed the on-line process of entering my project. Assessor's parcel map, description, site photos.

The form said,

"Based on the information entered into the application, you may receive an Engineering
Advance invoice. Estimated Engineering Advance:

Update Existing Electric Service — Residential $3,500
Total Estimated Engineering Advance $3,500

A PG&E representative will review your application and confirm the final invoice amount.
If an Engineering Advance is required to process my request for service, I agree to
remit payment to PG&E within 30 days of the Engineering Advance invoice date and
acknowledge that my application may be cancelled if payment is not received in this
timeframe. See above for additional details."

Also, mid February is earliest timeframe they expect to be able to do the work.
(I suppose just allowing PV net metering is different, worker swaps meter and tests disconnect switch, different equipment and skill set.)

Anybody in PG&E territory have a service upgrade or new overhead wire drop recently?
It's been decades since I last did it.

 

[400bird]

Update Existing Electric Service — Residential $3,500
Total Estimated Engineering Advance $3,500

Ouch!

Anybody in PG&E territory have a service upgrade or new overhead wire drop recently?
It's been decades since I last did it.

In 2018, my service upgrade was $0
They just cut the overhead service from my old mast and walked it over to the new mast.

 

[goldserve]

Did one recently and all the information was processed by a project manager in Sacramento first and they said the transformer I was on was at capacity based on the loads I would like to add (electric car charging and hpwh). The transferred the case to a local project manager and they wanted to send someone out first to do a real survey of what transformer I was being fed off of. It looked quite new and I was first from a 50kva transformer so no issue there. No fees and payment required since I did not need a transformer upgrade. The overhead wires are in free air so from all that I’ve read, there is no need to pull new lines for 200A which was also my case. I could see if you moved the service entrance drop to another part of the house which required longer wire, i have seen splicing and coupling of wires on some houses in the neighborhood.

Good luck with your project!

 

[Ampster]

In September 2021 I upgraded from a 100 Amp Zinsco panel to a Siemens 200 Amp panel. That new panel had to be located so it was 36 inches away from my gas meter. It required a new drop from the transformer and the charge was $75.

 

[summit]

In September 2021 I upgraded from a 100 Amp Zinsco panel to a Siemens 200 Amp panel. That new panel had to be located so it was 36 inches away from my gas meter. It required a new drop from the transformer and the charge was $75.

was the Zinsco panel completely replaced by the Siemens ? how much was the cost for that ?