EG4 LifePower BMS and Signature Solar Support Issues
- Thread starter Jriccisf
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Zapper77
Renaissance Man
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Take the battery home and use the CV to charge up to 55v. Disconnect the CV DC breaker and let the battery rest for 8 hours. Rinse and repeat. Keep track of the cell voltage. If you have a Windows PC available, use that. Windows app shows when cells are balancing.That’s definitely not what I want to hear
Here’s the thing - these systems are remote, off grid installations. It’s impossible for me to babysit a deep cycle process for 14 days. I also can’t bring the whole system down just so I can deep cycle one battery. It really feels like this is a battery malfunction or the result of a poorly designed battery/BMS system. End users should not be required to go through such lengths to get a battery to function properly. It’s also incredibly frustrating to not be able to get reliable support from the vendor or manufacturer.
Anyway - is there any way to complete a deep cycle process with the chargeverter?
SignatureSolarJess
Customer Experience Excellence Ambassador
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If the unit goes through troubleshooting and is deemed defective, we will of course be replacing it!
Jared,
My system, like Jriccisf, is remote and this maintenance being discussed here on the Lifepower batteries is just not feasible. Is there a trade in available to switch out Lifepowers for LL batteries ? (Assuming per your comment they do not have these issues or at least are minimal)
EG4_Jared
Online Support for EG4 Electronics
I unfortunately do not know of a trade in program. However, I would recommend reaching out to your distributor. As for the LifePower4, most of the troubleshooting tools can be used offline as long as the BMS Test software is installed on a windows laptop.
That was Signature Solar. Posed the trade-in question and waiting on an answer.
But to that, is my assumption correct that the LL batteries would be a better fit for my remote application ?
On the tools offline comment...not sure I understand how being able to use offline helps me ? Do you mean remotely ? or ?
EG4_Jared
Online Support for EG4 Electronics
Both would be suitable for remote applications, but the LL model provides a more advanced BMS. Additionally, I may have misinterpreted the earlier question. If you had remote access to an on-site computer linked to the LifePower4 batteries via a read/write cable connected to the master battery, remote troubleshooting would be possible. However, this could disrupt BMS communication as it would occupy one of the two available BatCom ports on the LifePower4.
SignatureSolarJess
Customer Experience Excellence Ambassador
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Hey! There is not a trade in program for this. If you'd like to call our sales line and explain your situation, they can help you figure out the best way to move forward! 903-441-2090
Jared,
A little more background...my (3) Lifepower batteries - a year or so old- have gone from fulling charging to 100% from the EG4-3000 when purchased to a 1% gradual reduction in maximum charge per week (99% max for a week, then 98% for a week, etc) to now a 2% reduction in max charge per day. I found I'm able to get it back to 100% SOC by taking the loads off the EG4-3000 and charging with the SS 48V charger. This results in the SOC almost going immediately to 100%. That then restarts the cycle of loosing 2% max SOC everyday after till I do the charger routine again.
Regarding you comment on either the LL or Lifepower being suited for remote application. Below is an excerpt from a document Signature Solar sent me regarding how to fix the SOC problem. It mirrors what has been said already on this thread about the 14 days of 80% DOD, etc to fix incorrect SOC readings. It also goes on to say this routine should be done every month. (I'm not sure many design their system for 80% DOD every day, so to me that means the monthly routine is for most all if not all)
"We also recommend performing a Deep Cycle when the system is first set up and when a new battery is
added to the system. It is also recommended to do this once a month; however, if they are discharged to
80% DOD every day, this is not needed."
A battery that requires doing a monthly 80% DOD routine is not what I'd say is suitable for a remote unoccupied application.
Asking my question another way...does the LL battery require the 80% DOD cycling every month ? More direct, does it maintain 100% SOC maximum recharge capability without any intervention or maintenance routines ?
42OhmsPA
What's in a title?
What voltage is the BMS expecting to be charged to to reset to 100%?
I'd connect to the BMS with the PC software and adjust the 100% full charge voltage to ~55V / ~3.44V / cell.
Your cells are more than likely out of balance and the charge voltage is set to high causing disconnects due to runner cells.
The firmware update that was recommend likely addresses this.
I'd connect to the BMS with the PC software and adjust the 100% full charge voltage to ~55V / ~3.44V / cell.
Your cells are more than likely out of balance and the charge voltage is set to high causing disconnects due to runner cells.
The firmware update that was recommend likely addresses this.
Zapper77
Renaissance Man
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What do you have the bulk voltage set at?
marionw
Solar Enthusiast
The EG4 LifePower4 batteries with firmware v3.37 have the cell start balancing voltage set to 3.45 VDC. Once cells get to this voltage the BMS will start to balance the cells and the SOC will reset to 100%.
If however you do have one or more "runner cells", one for example that charges faster than the others, reaches the 3.45 volts then continues to 3.6 volts which is the Cell Overvoltage Protection (OVP) setpoint then the BMS will turn off the charging MOSFETS which will prevent further charging of the other cells. The runner cell may bleed back down to 3.4 volts which is the OVP reset voltage at which time the BMS will turn on the charging MOSFETS only to see the runner charge back up. The only way around this is to lower the charging voltage such that the runner does not get to 3.6 volts and the other cells are given the opportunity to "catch up"
Cell Under-voltage protection (UVP) is set at 2.5 volts so the BMS should never allow any cell in the battery to discharge below this.
How are your batteries wired, are they install in a rack with bus bars? How does the inverter connect to the battery bank. There are particular wiring diagrams that ensure a more equal charge and discharge of all batteries in the bank
Other issues that may affect what you are seeing is whether you are in open or closed loop. I suspect that in order to operate in "closed loop" you would need an EG4 Communications hub.
Have you considered using Solar Assistant for monitoring and data collection. If you have an internet connection, SA can be set up so that you can at least monitor all individual batteries remotely, if not you will at least have data collection capabilities. In addition, if you install an EG4 Communications hub (whether using open or closed loop) you can install an SD card in the hub for data collection.
If however you do have one or more "runner cells", one for example that charges faster than the others, reaches the 3.45 volts then continues to 3.6 volts which is the Cell Overvoltage Protection (OVP) setpoint then the BMS will turn off the charging MOSFETS which will prevent further charging of the other cells. The runner cell may bleed back down to 3.4 volts which is the OVP reset voltage at which time the BMS will turn on the charging MOSFETS only to see the runner charge back up. The only way around this is to lower the charging voltage such that the runner does not get to 3.6 volts and the other cells are given the opportunity to "catch up"
Cell Under-voltage protection (UVP) is set at 2.5 volts so the BMS should never allow any cell in the battery to discharge below this.
How are your batteries wired, are they install in a rack with bus bars? How does the inverter connect to the battery bank. There are particular wiring diagrams that ensure a more equal charge and discharge of all batteries in the bank
Other issues that may affect what you are seeing is whether you are in open or closed loop. I suspect that in order to operate in "closed loop" you would need an EG4 Communications hub.
Have you considered using Solar Assistant for monitoring and data collection. If you have an internet connection, SA can be set up so that you can at least monitor all individual batteries remotely, if not you will at least have data collection capabilities. In addition, if you install an EG4 Communications hub (whether using open or closed loop) you can install an SD card in the hub for data collection.
I'm not sure on the current BMS settings. I have tried the BMS test routines early on as guided by the SS techs, spending a half day (which is a lot of time for me at this remote location while having other tasks to do) ending with no joy in fixing the problem. To your comment on out of balance - and ultimately needing a solution that doesn't require "babysitting" as another forum user put it, my question would be what got them out of balance? I mean, my setup is probably as simple as you can get and without understanding (and correcting) what got them out of balance it just says to me it'll just happen again which...means I've still got a system that requires babysitting and ultimately a solution that doesn't fit my application. The firmware makes sense that might be a fix and willing to dedicate my next trip to installing it. I just can't waste time tinkering that doesn't get me to a final solution.
Maybe to understand my mindset when purchasing this system. Buying an EG4 inverter and batteries to me meant plug and play. No issues with compatibility or tweaking would be necessary - this equipment knows how and is designed to work together. Easy-smeezy. Exact fit what I needed for a remote location - plug it in and it'll run without intervention. I don't want to know or have to know what the BMS firmware settings are - that's not what I feel I purchased. I want to plug in the RJ45 cables and it run - period.
Unfortunately though my purchase - almost two years ago - did not meet that expectation. Countless hours with techs, BMS software changes, DOD routines, RMAing batteries and finally just putting up with it till now its gotten so bad it's just beyond reasonable (to put up with). I just need a solar solution that keeps batteries charged and provides 120V power from them - and does so without needing constant intervention to keep working correctly.
Anyway...sorry for the rant...but do I have bad expectations ?
I'm not sure on the current BMS settings. I have tried the BMS test routines early on as guided by the SS techs, spending a half day (which is a lot of time for me at this remote location while having other tasks to do) ending with no joy in fixing the problem. To your comment on out of balance - and ultimately needing a solution that doesn't require "babysitting" as another forum user put it, my question would be what got them out of balance? I mean, my setup is probably as simple as you can get and without understanding (and correcting) what got them out of balance it just says to me it'll just happen again which...means I've still got a system that requires babysitting and ultimately a solution that doesn't fit my application. The firmware makes sense that might be a fix and willing to dedicate my next trip to installing it. I just can't waste time tinkering that doesn't get me to a final solution.
Maybe to understand my mindset when purchasing this system. Buying an EG4 inverter and batteries to me meant plug and play. No issues with compatibility or tweaking would be necessary - this equipment knows how and is designed to work together. Easy-smeezy. Exact fit what I needed for a remote location - plug it in and it'll run without intervention. I don't want to know or have to know what the BMS firmware settings are - that's not what I feel I purchased. I want to plug in the RJ45 cables and it run - period.
Unfortunately though my purchase - almost two years ago - did not meet that expectation. Countless hours with techs, BMS software changes, DOD routines, RMAing batteries and finally just putting up with it till now its gotten so bad it's just beyond reasonable (to put up with). I just need a solar solution that keeps batteries charged and provides 120V power from them - and does so without needing constant intervention to keep working correctly.
Anyway...sorry for the rant...but do I have bad expectations ?
Batteries are wired in parallel to a short busbar (no rack). I was careful to keep all the cables the same length from each battery to the common busbar. Then from the busbar I have one set of (neg/pos) cables to the inverter. RJ45 cables for BMS comm are daisy chained between each battery and finally to the inverter.
I've looked at SA but seemed like too much $. Instead I switched the WiFi module with a custom ESP, using that to read the modbus registers for the SOC, IW and OW and feeding those into Home Assistant which has worked very well. I'm not setting any values with that setup - only reading those modbus registers and sending to home assistant. This problem was going on well before I did that.
marionw
Solar Enthusiast
What are the loads on the inverter. If the inverter spends a lot of time in idle it has a small draw on the batteries. For many batteries, low current discharge is really not measured or accounted for by the BMS which will result in SOC getting out of whack.
Well I use about 20% per day. (from the 3 batteries). My loads are communication, cameras, refrigerator, and a window unit as needed to keep the equipment at room temp.
42OhmsPA
What's in a title?
They can be out of balance from not seeing a full charge frequently, not being properly top balanced before assembly, sitting to long, having different IR, many things. I dealt with similar issues with my DIY packs, 2 I top balanced the other I just put together. I found I was trying to charge them to to high a voltage, creating my own issues... Ended up reduced bulk to 55.4V and float ~55V, still somewhat aggressive settings. The working range of LiFePO4 isn't the same as the min / max voltage.
I don't think you have bad expectations and completely understand your frustrations when you pay a premium for something that's supposed to work...
LithiumCowboy
New Member
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- Dec 22, 2022
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Do you know what firmware your lifepower4 batteries are currently on? If you can tell me this I can help you more specifically.
The majority of electronics have updates these days. Power electronics are no exception the majority of battery companies and inverter companies have updates for continued support or quality of life fixes.
Also all battery banks require maintenance. This has always been a requirement for any chemistry of batteries. Especially multiple batteries in parallel. Every battery needs routine maintenance. Your batteries have a SOC% imbalance because charging/discharging amperage is not equal. And for the 100ah capacity batteries 1 amp of charging/discharging current= 1ah. Example: if you discharge these 100ah batteries @ 10 amps. In 1 hour there will be 90ah remaining. This adds up quickly with batteries in parallel. The best method to rebalance the bank is to top balance by fully charging the entire battery bank. This might not be possible every day. But should be on a routine schedule
On firmware version...I don't. This location is remote...about 3 hours away and I only go there every month or so.
On your battery charging explanation...I thought the nature of charging in parallel would balance "naturally". IE: batteries with less charge would have less resistance and take more amperage - catching up to those more charged. Then on top of that isn't the BMS tasked with balancing ? To all that I found this googling....
"Batteries will balance when put in parallel, but the cell groups within each battery will not balance with other cell groups in the other battery. Each battery's internal Battery Management System (BMS) will manage its cell groups, ensuring that they remain balanced within the individual battery"
I can accept regular maintenance might be required, but monthly 80% DOD cycling ? I've just not heard of that from all my youtubing and other research on solar ?
