diy solar

diy solar

Feast or Famine, The off grid solar dilemma.

Interesting researching dishwashers. By and large they consume a lot of energy due to the fact they are a water heater. I had thought that since the dishwasher was plumbed into the hot water from the houses hot water tank that the heating element in the bottom of my dishwasher was only used during drying if cool dry was not selected. Seems they heat the water inside up to 155F or higher (depending on if high temp wash is selected) for sanitation requirements. Most of the so called efficient dishwashers play games (it is amazing how a few degrees can reduce a year's energy consumption for the Energy Star label) with how much they heat the water and the amount they heat.
What really helps is if the feed water is already piping hot. Most days we end up with excess solar, and it gets dumped into the hot water heater first until maxed out (and finally to A/C in summer, heat pump in winter). Since there's a fairly lengthy pipe between the HWH and dishwasher, we open the hot water spigot and wait for the scalding 140ºF water to arrive before starting the dishwasher.

Off grid solar and excessive running of a dishwasher can be problematic.
You're not wrong, and I'm sure it helps that our HWH is a hybrid. But I'm pretty comfortable with running A/C overnight in 3 bedrooms, as well as running a load of dishes on battery. Still typically wake up with at over 50% SoC. We never use the heated dry function, though!
 
What really helps is if the feed water is already piping hot.
I don't see how. The water is either heated by the water heater, or it's heated by the dishwasher, or a bit of both. Either way it'll be the same energy demand to raise a given volume of water to a given temperature.

My dishwasher doesn't even have a hot water inlet, and it is recommended to not connect it to a hot water supply as the supply connections are not rated for it.
 
I don't see how. The water is either heated by the water heater, or it's heated by the dishwasher, or a bit of both. Either way it'll be the same energy demand to raise a given volume of water to a given temperature.

Using electric water heater tank as a thermal battery. Dump load.

Would help with cycle time, too.
 
I've talked about doing that very thing and just never seem to get around to it. You're right - nothing to lose but a little time. It sure would be sweet if I could recover the thing. Worst case scenario I would have water for livestock and gardens, and in a jam I could always filter it and drink it if there's any problem. I suspect other then being hard and the sand there's nothing actually wrong with the water. I'm gonna do that. But maybe on a cooler day than today. I'm thinking October the way things have been here lately.

It was a lot of PVC pipe, but the well drillers said to build a bubble lift, air hose and PVC to the bottom, then 'T' in the air and the bubbles would lift sediment and it worked.

About 10 foot of silt, then I hit hard bottom. Wasn't fast, but I didn't have to do it all at once, and I probably should have used something bigger than a 3/4" PVC pipe and bigger compressor, but it's what I had.

The casing is too small to try and drill deeper, so if the water table drops I'm screwed, but it has a lot of standing water everytime I've checked it.

A bubble lift isn't efficient for supplying water, but it's handy for clearing silt/sand. In a pinch you could use a trash pump, let the water pool so the sand settles, then pump off the clean water.

With mine, it's battling lime. I should have got a water softener a long time ago, but I procrastinat...

I still have the 1998 Procrastinator's Club application laying around here, never got it sent in... ?
 
It was a lot of PVC pipe, but the well drillers said to build a bubble lift, air hose and PVC to the bottom, then 'T' in the air and the bubbles would lift sediment and it worked.

About 10 foot of silt, then I hit hard bottom. Wasn't fast, but I didn't have to do it all at once, and I probably should have used something bigger than a 3/4" PVC pipe and bigger compressor, but it's what I had.

The casing is too small to try and drill deeper, so if the water table drops I'm screwed, but it has a lot of standing water everytime I've checked it.

A bubble lift isn't efficient for supplying water, but it's handy for clearing silt/sand. In a pinch you could use a trash pump, let the water pool so the sand settles, then pump off the clean water.

With mine, it's battling lime. I should have got a water softener a long time ago, but I procrastinat...

I still have the 1998 Procrastinator's Club application laying around here, never got it sent in... ?
hey shitbird.. you are a goon :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
 
I don't see how. The water is either heated by the water heater, or it's heated by the dishwasher, or a bit of both. Either way it'll be the same energy demand to raise a given volume of water to a given temperature.

My dishwasher doesn't even have a hot water inlet, and it is recommended to not connect it to a hot water supply as the supply connections are not rated for it.
If a hybrid water heater is being used, it would be more efficient than a heating coil in the dishwasher. It would depend on the COP of the water heater.

Would it amount to much? Probably not as much as one thinks, especially if the dishwasher isn't used daily.
 
What really helps is if the feed water is already piping hot. Most days we end up with excess solar, and it gets dumped into the hot water heater first until maxed out (and finally to A/C in summer, heat pump in winter). Since there's a fairly lengthy pipe between the HWH and dishwasher, we open the hot water spigot and wait for the scalding 140ºF water to arrive before starting the dishwasher.


...
I always open the hot water tap at the sink before starting the dishwasher so that the fill water is as hot as possible. But beyond that I had not really put much thought into the function of the machine.
 
I always open the hot water tap at the sink before starting the dishwasher so that the fill water is as hot as possible. But beyond that I had not really put much thought into the function of the machine.

I do the same thing, especially in winter when the hot water comes from the wood burner, not electric. Saves quite a bit of energy.
 
I don't see how. The water is either heated by the water heater, or it's heated by the dishwasher, or a bit of both. Either way it'll be the same energy demand to raise a given volume of water to a given temperature.
Just run the dishwasher at the same time, it's no different. You either dump it directly or indirectly.
The difference is the flexibility of a buffer--a dump load is there to absorb energy on demand, and in this case, give it back later when needed. When the hybrid heat pump is taken into consideration, my hot water heater effectively functions as a 8 kWh battery that only "costs" 2kWh to charge.

My point was simply that most days, we don't have to worry about running the dishwasher during sunny weather, or even daytime for that matter. While I'm very impressed by your consumption vs PV production chart, I doubt I could achieve it in my household. Shifting laundry and cooking to daytime (and only sunny weather in winter) hasn't exactly been easy for my family, so it's nice to have one less thing to worry about.


My dishwasher doesn't even have a hot water inlet, and it is recommended to not connect it to a hot water supply as the supply connections are not rated for it.
It's easy to forget that we're sharing a global forum. In the US, dishwashers are connected to hot water supply lines. When I lived abroad, I had to un-learn the hot water line purge step, and also remember to regularly add salt (!!).


If a hybrid water heater is being used, it would be more efficient than a heating coil in the dishwasher. It would depend on the COP of the water heater.

Would it amount to much? Probably not as much as one thinks, especially if the dishwasher isn't used daily.
In our house, it's used daily, at minimum. If my back-of-napkin estimate is close, we probably save close 0.5-1 kWh per load. It's also nice to cut down on those large current spikes.


I do the same thing, especially in winter when the hot water comes from the wood burner, not electric. Saves quite a bit of energy.
Care to share details of your wood-fired boiler setup? I'm impressed that you manage to run a dishwasher in winter in your location!
 
The difference is the flexibility of a buffer--a dump load is there to absorb energy on demand, and in this case, give it back later when needed. When the hybrid heat pump is taken into consideration, my hot water heater effectively functions as a 8 kWh battery that only "costs" 2kWh to charge.

My point was simply that most days, we don't have to worry about running the dishwasher during sunny weather, or even daytime for that matter. While I'm very impressed by your consumption vs PV production chart, I doubt I could achieve it in my household. Shifting laundry and cooking to daytime (and only sunny weather in winter) hasn't exactly been easy for my family, so it's nice to have one less thing to worry about.



It's easy to forget that we're sharing a global forum. In the US, dishwashers are connected to hot water supply lines. When I lived abroad, I had to un-learn the hot water line purge step, and also remember to regularly add salt (!!).



In our house, it's used daily, at minimum. If my back-of-napkin estimate is close, we probably save close 0.5-1 kWh per load. It's also nice to cut down on those large current spikes.



Care to share details of your wood-fired boiler setup? I'm impressed that you manage to run a dishwasher in winter in your location!
probably an OWB setup... outdoor water boiler. just a wood stove on steroids with a heat transfer loop in the middle of it.
 
If a hybrid water heater is being used, it would be more efficient than a heating coil in the dishwasher. It would depend on the COP of the water heater.
That is true. We have a big push for heat pump water heating here.

The better units are not hybrids, have separate compressors and water storage tank, and use CO2 for the refrigerant so they will work well below freezing. I guess hybrids are more common in colder climates, but here they are indicative of being cheap and less reliable. And I wouldn't consider a heat pump water heater much of a dump load, generally you use the timer controller built into the unit as it needs to operate on a fairly regular schedule to ensure hot water supply.
 
Excellent treatise on space heating in serious cold from up northand personal, thanks!

Quite a bit of interesting knowledge in this thread. Too bad it would be a challenge to find this info from a thread title search.

Like our extra solar capabilities, we keep a goodly amount of cash on hand for ‘rainy days’.
 
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About half way on this page: https://medium.com/@upnorthandoffgrid/6-heating-systems-5c5727c1607e

It's an indoor wood gasification boiler, coupled to a 3000L buffer.
We have been using a Tarm (made in Denmark) indoor wood gasification boiler with a 4500L buffer tank for almost 20 years. Rebuilt parts of the refractory at the beginning of the last heating season. That's something they don't tell you about.

During the normal part of winter I fire it once per week and on the coldest periods I fire it twice per week. We added a ground source heat pump 12 years ago but at the time we installed it there was no easy way to tie it into the radiant in floor heating system. I haven't looked for a year but there was is still no heat pump available in the US capable of producing enough hot water for space heating. Plenty of DHW options however.
 
I haven't looked for a year but there was is still no heat pump available in the US capable of producing enough hot water for space heating. Plenty of DHW options however.


This one says 40 kW, which would be sufficient whether that's power in or heat out. Variable speed scroll pump.


 
This one says 40 kW, which would be sufficient whether that's power in or heat out. Variable speed scroll pump.



Nice find!

From that link.
Cold-climate performance and scalability
Heat2O can operate at high capacity even in cold climates such as climate zones 5 and 6. The system delivers 100% heating capacity of 40 kW at ambient temperatures as low as 36° F. When down to -13° F outside, the system can still supply 176° F hot water but at 50% of the heating capacity.

I'd still be fine at -13f when it's only able to deliver 20kW (68,000 BTU's). My 2 ton ground source keeps up during the less than 20 hours we see those temps and that's only every other year.

Arctic Heat Pumps was all I could and they didn't have any distribution in the US when I looked a year (or two?) ago. Now I see they have a distributor just a few hours from me.


Side note: What happens at -20f though? The elephant in the room with heat pumps and the typical american home is that unless you have dual fuel or straight resistance capable of meeting that demand you could be in trouble in just a few hours. Most heat pumps are installed with heat strip back up so the more heat pumps that get installed the more likely we are to crash the grid again. Texas etc Feb 2021.
 
As per this threads title I had a sobering thought looking at my stats this afternoon...

In the summer my production normally goes through the roof and I can't ever use all of my potential production.
Even with minisplits running cooling all the time. F.ex today I've used 36kwh (34 celcius).

In the winter my consumption rises a lot with the use of electrical heating (also the same minisplits but to heat with, where they are not so efficient) and other floor heaters etc. Depending on how cold it is outside I can see 90-95kwh per day in consumption.
If it's a clear day I can have nice production also in winter but if it is clouded and or rain it might only produce 7.5kwh...

Feast or famine indeed.

I am using my grid connection as a "generator" to just add some juice on those winter days. In the summer with sunny weather (of which we have a lot here in Andalucia) I never use any gridpower at all.

Ofc: moar batteries and panels...yeah...there is limit how much it is viable to keep installing more when you are chasing the very upper part of the curve in regards to the economics of it vs. just use the grid on those days instead.
Esp. in regards to panels - if it is too cloudy and/or rainy it is almost useless.

Last year my 2 worst months were November and December.
 
I’m a little over 1 year into my solar journey. I am 100% off grid and writing this via the miracle of satellite internet and solar. I can’t believe that I once had a generator, propane, and and bank of LA batteries. Now I have a 20kwp array and a 30kwh battery bank and have eliminated propane except for winter heat, but I can often supplement that heavily in the winter with electric heat. My generator has not been run in many, many months except to test it. Even though I’m grossly over-paneled for my needs, my mountain weather can often mean that I have only a couple of solar hours. Today had a small break in the clouds and my batteries completely charged by 9am. By small break in the clouds, i mean heavy overcast, but not raining. My batteries charged by 10 am. Last winter, I had days when it was snowing heavily and I was still putting 1000 W into the battery. That is why I oversized. Where I live, everything is sixzed for the winter
 
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