diy solar

diy solar

How to combine AC in and outs of multiple inverter/charge controllers?

Clearly I'm not an electrician
TBH I just play one on the Internet.

#4 for the EG4 to the subpanel is fine by my calcs.

The problem with 150A is that you need to get that onto your MSP. 150A plug on breaker is not that common. You can use plug-on lugs that can go to 150A I guess. These are going to be permanently on, no disconnect.

The 200A main shutoff is 200A for L1 and 200A for L2. This panel is off-grid so there is no utility power? Then you can swap the 200A to 150A and feed the subpanel from this. In theory you could keep the 200A but that is confusing and I've been told not to do it before.

Another option is to do 2 70A breakers on your MSP, and have 2 sets of conductors going down to where your inverters are. You'll have to think through whether you're OK with the servicing implications of this.
 
If you do 2x 70A breakers on MSP then interlocking a generator on the main won't work, since interlock plates only work on 2 breakers AFAIK, and there would be 3 breakers involved in that config. Generator x1 + Inverter x2
 
I'm not sure if it can be limited. I'll look into the 150A sub-panel. The 200A MSP panel has a 200A main shut off, which I assume is split between L1 and L2 as 100A each I assume that is what you mean. It seems the 70A breakers for the sub-pane for each
TBH I just play one on the Internet.

#4 for the EG4 to the subpanel is fine by my calcs.

The problem with 150A is that you need to get that onto your MSP. 150A plug on breaker is not that common. You can use plug-on lugs that can go to 150A I guess. These are going to be permanently on, no disconnect.

The 200A main shutoff is 200A for L1 and 200A for L2. This panel is off-grid so there is no utility power? Then you can swap the 200A to 150A and feed the subpanel from this. In theory you could keep the 200A but that is confusing and I've been told not to do it before.

Another option is to do 2 70A breakers on your MSP, and have 2 sets of conductors going down to where your inverters are. You'll have to think through whether you're OK with the servicing implications of this.

L line is correct, agree?

Any thoughts on wire sizes? From the EG4s to the sub-panel, then from the sub-panel to the MSP?
@zanydroid Take a look at this. I've included my house panel and what I was thinking regarding running wires from the sub-panel to it. Also upped the size of the sub-panel to 150 amps, and the wires from it to the main panel to 1/0 to cover the increased amperage.
McGuffin.Home.Power.Station--vs2.jpg
 
@zanydroid Take a look at this. I've included my house panel and what I was thinking regarding running wires from the sub-panel to it. Also upped the size of the sub-panel to 150 amps, and the wires from it to the main panel to 1/0 to cover the increased amperage.
View attachment 140839
Looks good. You might consider aluminum to save some money. Performance and durability should not be affected. In fact there’s probably way more of it installed in large sizes than copper.

You could run aluminum SER without conduit. 2-2-2-4 SER should be quite common and nicely priced, and is actually oversized I believe for your inverter ampacity which can help with efficiency. Looks less neat than conduit.

For the 150A panel, that one is main lug only but I think convertible. You could maybe save some money and trouble by buying the pre installed main breaker SKU.The main breakers are expensive and may require some extra accessory to install.

You can consider a 200, downsize to 150 MBK, to give you the option of putting some convenience circuits from load breakers starting at that panel. You can do like up to 60A total breaker amp count. Or feed a 60A subpanel off this and put as many as you want in that
 
Looks good. You might consider aluminum to save some money. Performance and durability should not be affected. In fact there’s probably way more of it installed in large sizes than copper.

You could run aluminum SER without conduit. 2-2-2-4 SER should be quite common and nicely priced, and is actually oversized I believe for your inverter ampacity which can help with efficiency. Looks less neat than conduit.

For the 150A panel, that one is main lug only but I think convertible. You could maybe save some money and trouble by buying the pre installed main breaker SKU.The main breakers are expensive and may require some extra accessory to install.

You can consider a 200, downsize to 150 MBK, to give you the option of putting some convenience circuits from load breakers starting at that panel. You can do like up to 60A total breaker amp count. Or feed a 60A subpanel off this and put as many as you want in that
So I was looking at some information on this subpanel and I found this:
1679519241234.png
Bus Stab meaning those copper plates in the panel the breakers attach to. So if I put in two double pole 70amp breakers, doesn't that mean I'm exceeding this limit?
 
So I was looking at some information on this subpanel and I found this:
View attachment 140845
Bus Stab meaning those copper plates in the panel the breakers attach to. So if I put in two double pole 70amp breakers, doesn't that mean I'm exceeding this limit?
That’s for QT breakers, IE tandems. It can be an issue but not in your case.

Another approach is to not put them on the same row. Then you have it stretched across two sets of stabs. Since you are using the sum of breakers rule it doesn’t matter where you put the backfeed breakers.
 
That’s for QT breakers, IE tandems. It can be an issue but not in your case.

Another approach is to not put them on the same row. Then you have it stretched across two sets of stabs. Since you are using the sum of breakers rule it doesn’t matter where you put the backfeed breaker
So if I put my two double pole backfeed 70a breakers on the left side, then this won't be an issue? I have read I'll need to add the red stub to mechanically secure the breakers and clearly label them as "Main Breaker" on each of them...
I'm thinking I will also go ahead and get a 200A panel, just to be consistent with the 200A Main House Panel. On this sub panel should I go ahead and put a 150 A main breaker, and just add the kit to do so?
 
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So if I put my two double pole backfeed 70a breakers on the left side, then this won't be an issue? I have read I'll need to add the red stub to mechanically secure the breakers and clearly label them as "Main Breaker" on each of them...
I'm thinking I will also go ahead and get a 200A panel, just to be consistent with the 200A Main House Panel. On this sub panel should I go ahead and put a 150 A main breaker, and just add the kit to do so?

Yes. On siemens you anyway can only put backfeed breakers on the left since the hold down kit is only available in a left-handed config, so to speak (kind of dumb). Siemens hold down kit is somewhat special in that it blocks the right hand side breaker on the same row. (I mostly run Siemens stuff at my house so I know a lot of gory details about their product line). I don't know if there's a way to lock two breakers down on the same row. Anyway I think you can just put them all on the same side, it all feels easier that way.

I think 150A vs 200A is almost the same size and same installation trouble, so might as well go for 200A. It might even be the same price or cheaper for 200A.

Yeah you'll want the 150A main breaker on the combiner sitting at your EG4s, that or upsize the feeder to 200A.
 
Yes. On siemens you anyway can only put backfeed breakers on the left since the hold down kit is only available in a left-handed config, so to speak (kind of dumb). Siemens hold down kit is somewhat special in that it blocks the right hand side breaker on the same row. (I mostly run Siemens stuff at my house so I know a lot of gory details about their product line). I don't know if there's a way to lock two breakers down on the same row. Anyway I think you can just put them all on the same side, it all feels easier that way.

I think 150A vs 200A is almost the same size and same installation trouble, so might as well go for 200A. It might even be the same price or cheaper for 200A.

Yeah you'll want the 150A main breaker on the combiner sitting at your EG4s, that or upsize the feeder to 200A.
"... that or upsize the feeder to 200A" Not sure what the option is you mean. I'm getting the 200A sub-panel for sure, and was thinking of installing a 150A breaker on the panel, since this most closely matches the max amps I expect per busbar plate in the sub-panel (67.5 * 2 = 135amps/busbar ) Am I understanding this correctly?

Getting some great information from here:

What's in my Home Depot cart, I do plan to shop around for price:
1679524000431.png
 
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Getting some great information from here:

So your breakers aren't really main breakers, and main breaker is hard to define for your situation. I think main refers to the breaker from the utility / main power source. I guess both of your 70A are main breakers. They are always-on power sources (unlike grid tie inverters which are interactive), which is why you must have hold down. And I think you must label the a certain way. You can google for pictures of the standard required solar / renewable generation labels, there's probably a variant that applies to your specific situation.

that or upsize the feeder to 200A
OK, so I mentioned this because:
  • you may be able to find a better deal on panel with 200A MBK packaged in, than 150A MBK + panel combo, or Main lug only combo + separate MBK kit (that's what you have in your cart right now)
  • If you can find a better deal, maybe going up to bigger wire that can hold 200A, and pairing that with the 200A breaker, is cheaper and arguably more future proof if you want to add more inverters in the future. Switching to aluminum instead of copper feeder could help with this too, since the cost of copper feeder starts getting even more ridiculous as you get to large AWG
  • I think your house panel can be main lug only OR main breaker. In this case it's local shutdown, as you have indicated in your picture. Now, since it's on the load side, you can use any breaker size, 200A too, it's just a switch. But putting 200A on a 150A wire is potentially confusing for future people (or if you yourself forget later). You can address the confusion by I guess labeling the house panel more clearly that it's 200A breaker but 150A feeder.
  • Another theoretical advantage of making the house panel breaker match the feeder is that you can tie in solar over there in the future. EG maybe that's a good place to land some microinverters or string inverters. And those can be AC coupled to your inverters in the other location. It's a lot easier to get a code compliant and safe situation if the main breaker there matches your feeder, instead of MBK being bigger.
    • Similarly, if you decide to use lugs instead of breaker over there, if you size the feeder to 200A just like the busbar, it's harder to make a calculation mistake. VS if you have feeder of 150A as you have right now, then whoever does future calculations for adding power sources on the main house panel will need to ignore the sticker on the panel and use 150A as the busbar. I would guess >50% of people will get this wrong.
Sorry, this may be getting too far in the weeds. Though as I've said before, I've been asked by solar installers to simplify my breaker set up along similar lines. In my case I had a 100A feeder with 100A breaker on MSP side and 200A built-in breaker on the distribution subpanel side. They weren't happy with either lugs or 200A, they wanted me to put a 100A backfeed breaker to match the feeder. This actually ended up helping me out, because right now I'm expanding my solar, and it's more convenient for me to put some of the new inverters on my distribution subpanel than other places in my system.

What's in my Home Depot cart, I do plan to shop around for price:
That looks reasonable. I think there's a second type of retainer clip from Siemens, they have two or three different panelboards. Most of the branch circuit breakers are the same but the retainer is different and the mains are different. You want to make sure you don't buy the wrong one. The Siemens catalog I think is decent in telling you all the different shapes and sizes and busbars, as well as which hold down / main breaker / other accessories are the right ones to buy.
 
So your breakers aren't really main breakers, and main breaker is hard to define for your situation. I think main refers to the breaker from the utility / main power source. I guess both of your 70A are main breakers. They are always-on power sources (unlike grid tie inverters which are interactive), which is why you must have hold down. And I think you must label the a certain way. You can google for pictures of the standard required solar / renewable generation labels, there's probably a variant that applies to your specific situation.


OK, so I mentioned this because:
  • you may be able to find a better deal on panel with 200A MBK packaged in, than 150A MBK + panel combo, or Main lug only combo + separate MBK kit (that's what you have in your cart right now)
  • If you can find a better deal, maybe going up to bigger wire that can hold 200A, and pairing that with the 200A breaker, is cheaper and arguably more future proof if you want to add more inverters in the future. Switching to aluminum instead of copper feeder could help with this too, since the cost of copper feeder starts getting even more ridiculous as you get to large AWG
  • I think your house panel can be main lug only OR main breaker. In this case it's local shutdown, as you have indicated in your picture. Now, since it's on the load side, you can use any breaker size, 200A too, it's just a switch. But putting 200A on a 150A wire is potentially confusing for future people (or if you yourself forget later). You can address the confusion by I guess labeling the house panel more clearly that it's 200A breaker but 150A feeder.
  • Another theoretical advantage of making the house panel breaker match the feeder is that you can tie in solar over there in the future. EG maybe that's a good place to land some microinverters or string inverters. And those can be AC coupled to your inverters in the other location. It's a lot easier to get a code compliant and safe situation if the main breaker there matches your feeder, instead of MBK being bigger.
    • Similarly, if you decide to use lugs instead of breaker over there, if you size the feeder to 200A just like the busbar, it's harder to make a calculation mistake. VS if you have feeder of 150A as you have right now, then whoever does future calculations for adding power sources on the main house panel will need to ignore the sticker on the panel and use 150A as the busbar. I would guess >50% of people will get this wrong.
Sorry, this may be getting too far in the weeds. Though as I've said before, I've been asked by solar installers to simplify my breaker set up along similar lines. In my case I had a 100A feeder with 100A breaker on MSP side and 200A built-in breaker on the distribution subpanel side. They weren't happy with either lugs or 200A, they wanted me to put a 100A backfeed breaker to match the feeder. This actually ended up helping me out, because right now I'm expanding my solar, and it's more convenient for me to put some of the new inverters on my distribution subpanel than other places in my system.


That looks reasonable. I think there's a second type of retainer clip from Siemens, they have two or three different panelboards. Most of the branch circuit breakers are the same but the retainer is different and the mains are different. You want to make sure you don't buy the wrong one. The Siemens catalog I think is decent in telling you all the different shapes and sizes and busbars, as well as which hold down / main breaker / other accessories are the right ones to buy.

@zanydroid - So to sum up. I'm going to go with the sub-panel approach. I'm thinking due to the size of my system, and to keep things consistent, I'll get a 200A sub-panel, put a 150a main breaker kit (I'm assuming it's ok to use a smaller breaker than the panel is rated for?) in it to closely match the feed coming from the inverters (135A/leg L1, L2), below will be two 70A double pole breakers to connect all 4 inverter hot wires. This will then be fed via 2/0 thhn cables to the main house panel that is 200A that has a 200A main breaker. Thoughts?
 
Yeah, that should be fine.

Make sure the 150A is the right one for the subpanel you get, since I think there are two kinds within Siemens. The catalog should clarify this. There's one kind with vertical switch and another kind with left-right switch. The way they mount is also quite different.

The left-right switch one tends to be used with subpanels that advertise as flippable (IE can be mounted up side down). Or you can zoom in on the picture on the main breaker version of the panel you choose and see whether it has the up/down kind or the left/right kind, and how the mounting looks vs the breaker you are buying.
 
Yeah, that should be fine.

Make sure the 150A is the right one for the subpanel you get, since I think there are two kinds within Siemens. The catalog should clarify this. There's one kind with vertical switch and another kind with left-right switch. The way they mount is also quite different.

The left-right switch one tends to be used with subpanels that advertise as flippable (IE can be mounted up side down). Or you can zoom in on the picture on the main breaker version of the panel you choose and see whether it has the up/down kind or the left/right kind, and how the mounting looks vs the breaker you are buying.

Will do. My only real concern is something you alluded to early, and that is the number of conductive wires in a pvc conduit, and if my plans violate any NEC rule regarding that.
 
It is relatively difficult to fit a number of wires exceeding allowed conduit fill. Pushing through a straight piece, maybe, but can't get fish tape through or pull around bends. I recommend making conduit oversize for the planned fill, and then even larger than that. Mine are overstuffed and I can't pull the additional wires I want to.

NEC derating for number of current carrying conductors is the thing to pay attention to.
What isn't clear to me is if metallic vs. PVC have different derating. I find no mention, but I'm sure steel conducts heat a lot better than plastic.

And if you do use PVC, ream it heavily! Including factory cut square ends; they snag insulation.
 
Will do. My only real concern is something you alluded to early, and that is the number of conductive wires in a pvc conduit, and if my plans violate any NEC rule regarding that.

IIRC I did the calculations (#4 copper?) having 4 in the conduit was fine. You can probably find an app to help you calculate it.

What isn't clear to me is if metallic vs. PVC have different derating. I find no mention, but I'm sure steel conducts heat a lot better than plastic.

It does not from a current carrying conductor perspective. I believe solid PVC has 90C max temperature, which is all you're allowed to go to with most common conductor types. Metallic is probably way higher but you would need specific wire to be able to exploit that.

I believe flexible PVC has lower max temperature (in both dry and wet, with wet being even worse?) and that can get you in trouble with derating for current carrying conductors.

Non-metallic cable typically gets punished more for derating, both NM and UF have restrictions. But this is getting far afield...

I think for conduit there's a place for both as small as possible and for go big or go home. Big conduit is harder to fit in the walls and to bend if you're not good at it. You can bend 1/2 EMT pretty damn fast even with terrible technique (but good luck fitting much more than 1 circuit in it). OTOH little sucks more than hating yourself for going 1 size too small on conduit and making a PITA pull for yourself. I have a couple of those sitting around...
 
It does not from a current carrying conductor perspective. I believe solid PVC has 90C max temperature, which is all you're allowed to go to with most common conductor types. Metallic is probably way higher but you would need specific wire to be able to exploit that.

I think the same current carrying conductors will get a lot hotter inside PVC conduit (especially thicker wall schedule 80) compared to inside metallic conduit. Therefore I would expect higher percentage derating.

The wire I use has 90C insulation. But apparently need to use 75C ampacity for circuits because terminals are rated for that temperature. The 90C ampacity of the wire should allow derating with multiple circuits in a conduit without having to derate below the 75C ampacity.
 
IIRC I did the calculations (#4 copper?) having 4 in the conduit was fine. You can probably find an app to help you calculate it.



It does not from a current carrying conductor perspective. I believe solid PVC has 90C max temperature, which is all you're allowed to go to with most common conductor types. Metallic is probably way higher but you would need specific wire to be able to exploit that.

I believe flexible PVC has lower max temperature (in both dry and wet, with wet being even worse?) and that can get you in trouble with derating for current carrying conductors.

Non-metallic cable typically gets punished more for derating, both NM and UF have restrictions. But this is getting far afield...

I think for conduit there's a place for both as small as possible and for go big or go home. Big conduit is harder to fit in the walls and to bend if you're not good at it. You can bend 1/2 EMT pretty damn fast even with terrible technique (but good luck fitting much more than 1 circuit in it). OTOH little sucks more than hating yourself for going 1 size too small on conduit and making a PITA pull for yourself. I have a couple of those sitting around...
Based on this, the point where I increase the size of the conduit from 1" to 1-1/4" to accomodate the second Inverters AC wires, I should be good on fill. Two G, two L1, two N. From: https://www.southwire.com/calculator-conduit
1679597408932.png
 
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