Sanwizard
Solar Wizard
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2021
- Messages
- 2,715
You mean I should move all the non-ethenol gas cans and large propane tanks for the generator away from the batteries? ?
Maybe move my reloading bench too...
LTO battery fire
- Thread starter Systems Planet
- Start date
Maybe move my reloading bench too...
rin67630
Solar Enthusiast
A fire blanket won't help. Lithium fires are not burning oxygen.
sunshine_eggo
Happy Breffast!
Everything that burns burns oxygen.
sunshine_eggo
Happy Breffast!
That's a wicked awesome blankie!!!!
rin67630
Solar Enthusiast
Lithium batteries are stricto-senso not burning: they are in thermal runaway. They don't need an external oxidizer to flame.
KITROBASKIN
Solar Enthusiast
Radio control car people that race will do things with their Li-Po batteries for a competitive edge. They have been using battery bags for years.
Why LiPo Bags are Essential for Battery Safety - DSLRPros Official Blog
Drones batteries can become dangerous if a cell breaks. For peace of mind use LiPo safety bags, these ensure safe charging..."
www.dslrpros.com
sunshine_eggo
Happy Breffast!
So oxygen isn't being used for combustion?
He’s nicer than me too…
The times in life I got my ass spanked publicly for being ditzy about stuff that was actually important or dangerous are the most the most remembered lessons I ever had…It part of manning up and growing up.
there’s nothing wrong with making a mistake ,as long as one learns from it..
rin67630
Solar Enthusiast
As far as I know, not.
But –of course– everything burnable around can be put to fire by the high temperature.
Kenny_
Solar Addict
Yes, there are multiple things happening here at the same time. It happens.
sunshine_eggo
Happy Breffast!
Then you don't know. Oxygen is being burned. The breakdown reaction is producing its own oxygen, but as you saw in the demo video, removing access to atmospheric oxygen significantly reduces the intensity of the fire.
Only if oxygen is present
Sanwizard
Solar Wizard
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2021
- Messages
- 2,715
Oxygen is needed. Try starting a fire in space. Even nuke blasts are muted due to no atmosphere.
Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2020
- Messages
- 20,687
Other reactions can release energy as well. Obviously a charged battery does, without interacting with atmosphere. If you mix acids with solvents, those react. Typically heat is released even if mixing is performed at moderate temperatures. It can get into runaway. Or, it can be triggered to release further energy later. The ones that come to mind immediately have oxygen in the molecule, but I think same occurs with oxygen free compounds.
LiFePO4 of course has oxygen, but maybe it doesn't result in additional energy release rearranging what's in the battery.
Fe we know combines with oxygen, but would give it up to Al. Since LiFePO4 battery fires can be extinguished, seems to contain elements that need external oxygen to fully react. (that would mean the battery is leaving some energy storage on the table in normal use.)
Don't know if any additional energy is released combining atoms/molecules of air; are nitrous oxides lower or higher energy state than N2 and O2? Of course, at first everything is ionized, probably leaves some in higher energy state (O3).
Nuclear reaction releases energetic neutrons, gamma, X-ray. The X-rays are so soft they don't penetrate air vary far, rather super-heat it which is what causes the blast and wind, wind carrying destructive power over the greatest distance. In space, the products fly like an arrow, and interact with whatever they hit. Including thermal shock and spallation, also doping of semiconductors.
LiFePO4 of course has oxygen, but maybe it doesn't result in additional energy release rearranging what's in the battery.
Fe we know combines with oxygen, but would give it up to Al. Since LiFePO4 battery fires can be extinguished, seems to contain elements that need external oxygen to fully react. (that would mean the battery is leaving some energy storage on the table in normal use.)
Don't know if any additional energy is released combining atoms/molecules of air; are nitrous oxides lower or higher energy state than N2 and O2? Of course, at first everything is ionized, probably leaves some in higher energy state (O3).
Nuclear reaction releases energetic neutrons, gamma, X-ray. The X-rays are so soft they don't penetrate air vary far, rather super-heat it which is what causes the blast and wind, wind carrying destructive power over the greatest distance. In space, the products fly like an arrow, and interact with whatever they hit. Including thermal shock and spallation, also doping of semiconductors.
rin67630
Solar Enthusiast
No wonder, burnable stuff around the battery burns...
...which reduces the intensity of the secondary fire.
But you can't reduce the thermal runaway by depriving oxygen.
The only way is to massively cool the battery by submersing it in a water pool.
And it will continue to "burn" under water, but the thermal runaway will stop earlier, once the temperature cooled enough.
You may want to read:
Do Lithium battery fires require oxygen?
Moderator says. "I'm torn. Give Tesla fires the oxygen of publicity? Autopilot says closing thread to new replies. I tried." This got me thinking. I think I read somewhere that Lithium bateries do not require oxygen to burn and can happily burn underwater. Is this true?
www.speakev.com
Last edited:
Zwy
Solar Wizard
If you read thru the followup, it seems it was some type of DIY BMS and he was charging over 3.65V per cell.
Zwy
Solar Wizard
No flame until second puncture when outside oxygen could enter.
The sun does pretty well
... but that's nuclear, not burning.
AFAIAA burning requires an oxidant, but that doesn't have to be oxygen.
