Aridom82
Learning addict
With quadruple tariffs we are going to need a 'How to make your own Lithium' section in the forum soon.
New Tariffs in the States
- Thread starter upnorthandpersonal
- Start date
LOL- you yanks get much larger rebates than we do- in my state (Qld) there is no state rebate at all for a gridtie solar, and the federal government rebate is $400 Au (some states do provide a small rebate as well- two match the federal rebate $ for $)- that $8000 rebate was when the scheme was first introduced... back in the 2000's... whe I got my last gridtie in 2016, it was down to $1000, now its $400 (the rebate scheme ends entirely in 2028 if I remember correctly- I got my grid installation ticket back in 2004, and I'm out of the gridtie solar game altogether, and only do 'word of mouth' offgrids these days- I blew past 50 quite a while ago- Obama was still president then lol, and climbing on hot roofs in 40C plus heat is a young fellas game lol)I was wondering ... and the ad says right there, "Rebate"
So maybe rooftop solar isn't cheaper in Australia (except for lack of red tape.)
Surely imported hardware costs just as much (except for tariffs), and labor rates probably not that much different.
Are your solar prices due to major subsidies, either paid by taxpayer, or pollution taxes, or purchase of clean energy credits?
50% rebate
And more,
"The subsidies initially included a national rebate of A$8,000 for a small 1kW array – more than the sticker price in parts of the country. "
‘Go hard and go big’: How Australia got solar panels onto one in every three houses
Households have continued to use state help that was first created more than a decade agowww.theguardian.com
So the total cost of that $2300 US to the purchaser system is $400 from the taxpayers here (or $264.40US) if you buy the bigger systems its a bit more obviously, it goes by inverter kW... The installer gets the 75 (or whatever) STC- but they are a gamble (like any stock)- they can hold them and hope for an upswing, or sell them immediately for whatever they are currently trading for...
STC (solar trading credits) are a bit more complicated- they are usually kept by the installer (the system owner 'can' keep them themselves, but quite frankly, I've only ever heard of two people doing it- and they both wished they hadn't)- its a LOT of added work come tax time and you only get about 75 STC for a 6.6kw system with 5kw inverter- these have nothing to do with the government (or the taxpayers) and are traded on a 'solar share market'- the current price is about $35 Au per share, but it is extremely volatile, and has dropped as low as $16 Au - so at current rates, the STC's are worth $2625 (which the installation company keeps, or you can buy them off them at the time you pay for your system at the current price- above the usual installation price that is)- if you sell them, you pay tax on it like any other income, if you keep them yourself, then you have to declare it as a taxable asset- thats why no-one wants to keep them yourself... (the installation companies usually sell all the installations STC they hold off onto the market once a month, otherwise they have to do all that paperwork keeping track of them)- the federal government initially supported the STC system with tax payments, but that hasn't been the case for over a decade...
So even with the STC and government rebates included- the new owner still pays that $2300 US for the 6.6kw system (and thats all- that covers all costs involved, no more to pay for the usual install), the installation company gets the $265US rebate, plus 75 STC's (of a varying value- currently worth about $1735.10 US- making the total cost of the system 'about' $4435 US in total... of which the homeowner pays $2300US, the taxpayers via the federal government (at least in Qld) pay $265, and 'the share market' pays 'around' $1735US (at todays rates)
Still only 'about' $4500US for a 6.6kw system, fully installed... (and because these are privately owned companies- they have to cover ALL their costs, and still make a profit at the end of the day...)
Not $20k, not $30k, not $60k...
Under $5k US...
See why I said the US has one of the highest solar costs in the world????
Steve_S
Offgrid Cabineer, N.E. Ontario, Canada
What exactly will happen & when it will be implemented at this point is just SPECULATION right now. It will all be released on May 21st (next Tuesday). Given the timing of the Announcement of this and when an "Official" release will be, is curious. Shock up front and less in reality ? see shall see.
Regardless, expect prices to jump, availability decrease and complications. There are indeed rumblings elsewhere about possible consequences to them, some even thinking it may give them even better deals as one market cuts itself off and there is even more excess stock to unload.
Regardless, expect prices to jump, availability decrease and complications. There are indeed rumblings elsewhere about possible consequences to them, some even thinking it may give them even better deals as one market cuts itself off and there is even more excess stock to unload.
And to address the 'lack of red tape'- a gridtie or hybrid system in Australia requires installation of one of the 'Australian Standards Tested and Approved' inverters only (which can cost between $50k to half a million to get an approval per model, no approval, no install it)- to install the panels means getting a 'solar installers ticket' for each worker fitting the panels (costs each worker over $1500 a year total in licencing fees), all electrical work is done by trade qualified and licenced electricians (that can run upwards of $2 grand a year), before anyone is allowed on the roof, a qualified 'roofworker'/scaffolder needs to fit 'roof fencing' for single story houses (for multistory houses, a licenced scaffolder is required to erect scaffolding), No 'running up a ladder with a panel slung on your back'- panels must be lifted to the roof (again approved lifting equipment required), the company has to hold public liability insurance, a 'solar installation' licence, do all the 'normal' paperwork as well as dealing with the federal government paperwork, the state electrical distribution company paperwork and approvals (the entire network itself is owned by a state government department), they have to register, maintain and insure their fleet of vehicles, plus running costs (diesel in the cities is about $1.90 Au a litre, here its closer to $2.40 a litre- thats $1.59 US a litre or about $6 US a gallon)
This was a 'half tank' topup- 32.5L, cost $78.20 (thats 8.5 gallons, and at todays exchange rate, it cost $51.70US)
Most Aussie companies wish they had as little 'red tape' to worry about- like I said before, US tradies tend to not last long on the job here- they simply have no concept of 'safe working practices' as done in Australia (or indeed most of the first world) and simply can't handle it... (plus many simply don't meet the standards required to get the licences involved...)
This was a 'half tank' topup- 32.5L, cost $78.20 (thats 8.5 gallons, and at todays exchange rate, it cost $51.70US)
Most Aussie companies wish they had as little 'red tape' to worry about- like I said before, US tradies tend to not last long on the job here- they simply have no concept of 'safe working practices' as done in Australia (or indeed most of the first world) and simply can't handle it... (plus many simply don't meet the standards required to get the licences involved...)
No stock in the US?
There is. But they cost more. The other thing is I was not planning on buying more yet, so not really in the budget either. By the time it is, stateside cells may be much more $. Blah.
Aridom82
Learning addict
I was reading about tariffs and they are supposed to be for protection of a national industry.
About the EVs we know that the Chinese companies are eating Tesla's croissant so it makes some sense.
But does the US has a domestic solar/lithium industry that needs protection?
Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2020
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You are in Canada. Will these tariffs affect the price you pay?
How porous is our Northern border?
I served as my own importer (and had to get an EIN, employer ID number) when I received a shipment of equipment from Japan.
I did the same buying a pallet of Canada-made SMA inverters from Canada.
What tariffs apply to assembled products coming from China to US? From Canada, if the content is largely from China?
"Portable lights, trailer mounted. With 28kWh of LiFePO4 battery."
wpns
Solar Joules are catch and release
Which brings up the age-old question about the Chinese (or whoever) dumping products below cost to prevent the emergence of that competing industry. There's also a time factor, you can't spin up a solar panel, battery, or inverter fab overnight, and uncertainty is a real market-killer.
Don't know about Canada but when exporting from UK to US our factory had to show a substantial transformation was within the UK to be able to stamp 'Made in UK' on the part. As we bought in UK made steel, aluminium and tin ingots and cast and rolled the alloy it was easy enough. But a trailer assembled from Chinese parts would be difficult to pass off as 'Made in UK'
Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2020
- Messages
- 21,286
Ok, use a Canada made trailer.
I'm more interested in the huge lithium battery mounted on it to power lighting.
Could even ship the trailer back for reconditioning and use building future units, after scavenging the cells from it.
I'm more interested in the huge lithium battery mounted on it to power lighting.
Could even ship the trailer back for reconditioning and use building future units, after scavenging the cells from it.
Steve_S
Offgrid Cabineer, N.E. Ontario, Canada
There is a significant different in the eyes of Duties Import/Exports. The "Made In ??? or the Assembled In ??? is handled quite differently. The finer points are only known to those that deal with that directly.
What effects to Canadians... If coming here directly by boat/plane or if coming up from the US ? it will likely be different. Depends on what the Canadian Gov does and how they choose to implement whatever they come up with. I expect the EU & Others will also have to consider it all... TBH, I have little hope that any of it will be reasonable in reality and that it will only really impact those using these goods & products - meaning "WE" are going to get shafted, especially the DIY Gang here. One HUGE reason for DIY is Budget and now that will get screwed too.
What effects to Canadians... If coming here directly by boat/plane or if coming up from the US ? it will likely be different. Depends on what the Canadian Gov does and how they choose to implement whatever they come up with. I expect the EU & Others will also have to consider it all... TBH, I have little hope that any of it will be reasonable in reality and that it will only really impact those using these goods & products - meaning "WE" are going to get shafted, especially the DIY Gang here. One HUGE reason for DIY is Budget and now that will get screwed too.
Tulex
Solar Wizard
I don't see prices changing much. If tariffs drive up prices, sales slow. Slow sales means too much inventory. Too much inventory is expensive to store, and costs jobs. Simply, China will have to drop prices on product to keep it moving.
Aridom82
Learning addict
Are there any us based companies that produce the same products the tariffs will target? If there are, and they are public, i see a stock price going up.
Duty will be charged on whatever price the seller marks on the bill of lading (CIF, FOB, DDP, etc). Just saying…
SpongeboB Sinewave
Solar Enthusiast
Yeah all the stuff going on makes my blood pressure go up.
Didnt they found a gigantic lithium deposit in California last year?
World's Largest Lithium Reserve Discovered Beneath California's Salton Sea | OilPrice.com
The U.S. Department of Energy has discovered a massive lithium deposit beneath California's Salton Sea, potentially making the U.S. self-sufficient in this critical battery metal and impacting the global lithium market.oilprice.com
That could be good news for battery prices in the us if they could set up domestic production.
I agree about not having politics here.
Just remember, and I think you know, Aridom82, that the tariffs we have today are nothing new.
25%+ tariffs on Chinese goods started a few years ago. It really effects our production costs because so many components come from China.
Gee, MidNite paid 40% tariffs for quite a while on our aluminum castings that came from China. Unfortunately these cannot come from the US.
There used to be more tariffs on Chinese solar panels, didn't there ? And it was dropped for quite a while.
Oh, and at least, right now, solar panels are CHEAP ! Especially used PV. The solar industry has been going quite slowly as of late.
As for EVs from China, I understand that the BYD's have quite a bad safety record for battery fires if those are the EVs that are being taxed. So one reason not to worry too much about this particular issue, if it is as bad as I heard.
My problem with these tariff deals is that they seem to add way more products than what is announced. Need to look at the lists.
The last group of tariffs added 6 or so years ago had all sorts of stuff on it you wouldn't even think should be there. Things that can hurt American manufacturers.
boB
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