Washer/Dryer, Dishwasher, and A/C!?

[DrZ123]

I guess a third option is build out a second system with another Victron 5000w Quattro inverter and whatever batteries I want and then just connect the two inverters for split phase.

In that case the batteries on each side shouldn't matter right?

 

[Rocketman]

you would think that -

I guess a third option is build out a second system with another Victron 5000w Quattro inverter and whatever batteries I want and then just connect the two inverters for split phase.

In that case the batteries on each side shouldn't matter right?

You would think that - but to connect two inverters together into split phase they must share the same battery - not only that but they need to have same cables - size, length,etc.

I would start by hooking up the rack Mount batteries you choose and then see what happens. If the batteries share current well (charging and discharging) your done.?. If they don’t play well together- then sell the Battleborns and get another rack. This one you won’t know what will happen until you set it up - it could be work out great or not…. Sometimes trial (and error) is the only way to learn.

 

[DrZ123]

you would think that -

You would think that - but to connect two inverters together into split phase they must share the same battery - not only that but they need to have same cables - size, length,etc.

I would start by hooking up the rack Mount batteries you choose and then see what happens. If the batteries share current well (charging and discharging) your done.?. If they don’t play well together- then sell the Battleborns and get another rack. This one you won’t know what will happen until you set it up - it could be work out great or not…. Sometimes trial (and error) is the only way to learn.

That's shocking to me, you would think once the power is getting to the inverter, it's generic power not battery specific!

So if I set up this way, I would have 10k watts in split phase. Would I be able to use an inverter generator like the AIvolt to charge the system if it gets low?

 

[DrZ123]

Also, this is having the two inverters connected each with their own battery bank (different brands)? Or one big battery bank hooked into the two inverters?

I was thinking to have two separate systems, like 2 solar arrays, 2 battery banks, 2 chargers, 2 inverters linked to each other. Does that even work?

 

[Frank in Thailand]

Also, this is having the two inverters connected each with their own battery bank (different brands)? Or one big battery bank hooked into the two inverters?

I was thinking to have two separate systems, like 2 solar arrays, 2 battery banks, 2 chargers, 2 inverters linked to each other. Does that even work?

2 separate systems work great, as long as you keep them separate !

When you talk AC , you talk about frequency, 60hz in the states.
This frequency MUST be matched. so there will be a "master" that gives the "go", and the "slave" that follows.

Try to imagine... 2 batteries, 2 inverters, master / slave, all seem good.
- situation 1: slave battery is empty first, it stops. battery get charged, wakes up as slave and... all ok
- situation 2: master battery is empty first, it stops. -> slave will become master as there is no one to listen to.
battery gets recharged, the "old master" wakes up, assuming its still master....
2 captains on 1 ship, 60hz, a small out of phase will provide magic smoke....
you absolutely don't want this.

As for many things, there is a workaround, you are lucky that you have Victron.
Victron has a "pass through" of 100A

You don't place them in parallel, but use one victron AC-out as the AC-in ("grid") for the next.
This normally will NOT work, as most inverter are limited in pass through to their own capacity.
normal inverter: 2 x 5 kw inverter, max output = 5 kw.
For victron: 2 x 5 kw = 10 kw, 5kw from the inverter and 5kw from pass through.

This way there is no master or slave.
there is "grid" (provided by the other) or no grid.
I haven't tried this, but there isnt a reason why it should not work.
Looping them, both AC out to the AC in (grid)... that doesn't feel like a workable solution
Obviously.you need to configure the Victron that it doesn't use the "grid" (AC provided by the other Victron)

Workaround, that works ONLY with inverters that have a high pass through.
Deye SUN12K-SG01LP1 is one of the few others that I found that have high pass through.

 

[DrZ123]

2 separate systems work great, as long as you keep them separate !

When you talk AC , you talk about frequency, 60hz in the states.
This frequency MUST be matched. so there will be a "master" that gives the "go", and the "slave" that follows.

Try to imagine... 2 batteries, 2 inverters, master / slave, all seem good.
- situation 1: slave battery is empty first, it stops. battery get charged, wakes up as slave and... all ok
- situation 2: master battery is empty first, it stops. -> slave will become master as there is no one to listen to.
battery gets recharged, the "old master" wakes up, assuming its still master....
2 captains on 1 ship, 60hz, a small out of phase will provide magic smoke....
you absolutely don't want this.

As for many things, there is a workaround, you are lucky that you have Victron.
Victron has a "pass through" of 100A

You don't place them in parallel, but use one victron AC-out as the AC-in ("grid") for the next.
This normally will NOT work, as most inverter are limited in pass through to their own capacity.
normal inverter: 2 x 5 kw inverter, max output = 5 kw.
For victron: 2 x 5 kw = 10 kw, 5kw from the inverter and 5kw from pass through.

This way there is no master or slave.
there is "grid" (provided by the other) or no grid.
I haven't tried this, but there isnt a reason why it should not work.
Looping them, both AC out to the AC in (grid)... that doesn't feel like a workable solution
Obviously.you need to configure the Victron that it doesn't use the "grid" (AC provided by the other Victron)

Workaround, that works ONLY with inverters that have a high pass through.
Deye SUN12K-SG01LP1 is one of the few others that I found that have high pass through.

So I would basically hook up an identical system to my first system, with a separate (can be a different brand) battery bank, a solar away, charger, etc into a Victron 5000w inverter. Then that inverter would plug into my current inverter as a passthrough with a total of 10kw output?

If so, the question becomes is this a good way to do it or am I spending time and money on a flimsy workaround instead of just creating a single system?

 

[Frank in Thailand]

So I would basically hook up an identical system to my first system, with a separate (can be a different brand) battery bank, a solar away, charger, etc into a Victron 5000w inverter. Then that inverter would plug into my current inverter as a passthrough with a total of 10kw output?

If so, the question becomes is this a good way to do it or am I spending time and money on a flimsy workaround instead of just creating a single system?

no, this is NOT a good way.

BUT (!!!) you do NOT want to use a single battery array.
if you remove this "mandatory" base setup, everything will become a flimsy workaround.

Is it possible? Yes.
Will it work? Yes.
Will it cost extra money? Nope
Going parallel will always require 2 identical inverters, same firmware, parallel kit, etc.
You have the Victron that is capable for pass through, so using pass through or parallel, your purchase still will be Victron.

What is the good way?
using one battery array, and a parallel kit. (I think to remember Victron have standard included this option, build -in)

If you do NOT want to use a single battery array, there are alternative options.
keep it as 2 separate systems is the "best" way.
if you do want to "merge" the AC output.... flimsy workaround

 

[DrZ123]

no, this is NOT a good way.

BUT (!!!) you do NOT want to use a single battery array.
if you remove this "mandatory" base setup, everything will become a flimsy workaround.

Is it possible? Yes.
Will it work? Yes.
Will it cost extra money? Nope
Going parallel will always require 2 identical inverters, same firmware, parallel kit, etc.
You have the Victron that is capable for pass through, so using pass through or parallel, your purchase still will be Victron.

What is the good way?
using one battery array, and a parallel kit. (I think to remember Victron have standard included this option, build -in)

If you do NOT want to use a single battery array, there are alternative options.
keep it as 2 separate systems is the "best" way.
if you do want to "merge" the AC output.... flimsy workaround

Guess back to the poll above then. Sell the BBs and buy all rack batteries, or double the amount of BBs at high cost

 

[Frank in Thailand]

Guess back to the poll above then. Sell the BBs and buy all rack batteries, or double the amount of BBs at high cost

Batteries can be of different brands.

Mix and match as much as you want and like.

100A (@S16) plus a 300A (@S16)?
Not a problem, as long as they are the same chemistry (lifepo4)

Older lifepo4 with a new set?
Also, not a problem

A better question is, why do you want to use 2 separate batteries?

 

[DrZ123]

Batteries can be of different brands.

Mix and match as much as you want and like.

100A (@S16) plus a 300A (@S16)?
Not a problem, as long as they are the same chemistry (lifepo4)

Older lifepo4 with a new set?
Also, not a problem

A better question is, why do you want to use 2 separate batteries?

Read back in thread. The system in the home I am buying has 16x 12v 100ah Battleborns in 48v config. I want more capacity.

To buy 16 more BBs is very pricey.

I could also sell the 16 BBs and buy double the capacity in 48v rack batteries without spending much, but it's a ton of work as the home is on an island.

Or I can buy the additional 48v rack batteries, parallel then with the Battleborns and pray nothing explodes.

 

[Frank in Thailand]

Read back in thread. The system in the home I am buying has 16x 12v 100ah Battleborns in 48v config. I want more capacity.

To buy 16 more BBs is very pricey.

I could also sell the 16 BBs and buy double the capacity in 48v rack batteries without spending much, but it's a ton of work as the home is on an island.

Or I can buy the additional 48v rack batteries, parallel then with the Battleborns and pray nothing explodes.

if you want to stay black and white minded, sure, be my guest.

WHY (!!!) do you want to make this choice???

There is absolutely no reason why you can not mix BB's with EG4
Praying is always good, pray that the blue sky doesn't come down and give us all a blue hat

Perhaps before making this poll, what is purely financial...., read up about lithium???

for the chemistry, it absolutely doesn't matter. Lifepo4 form BB or EG4.
and i can assure you, neither of the companies have their own lithium factory.
They buy lifepo4 cells and make them in a usable format for you.

in the core still lifepo4.

and for lifepo4, .... read above.

Its like the question: I have my gasoline tank half full of Shell 95, and i want a full tank. What should i do??
- Syphon the tank and sell the gasoline, and buy the cheaper Esso 95, so my tank is full again??
- Or just combine the 2 and hope nothing will explode....

You probably don't even think about why mixing would be any problem, and just use any gas station that is convenient or cheaper, and just add to what ever was in your tank.

Why try to find a problem where there is none???

diesel and gasoline.. that's a challenge.
like lead acid and lithium.
Both doable in the right configuration and correct circumstance, still a challenge.

for lead acid, older batteries do effect negative the new ones.
we are not talking about lead acid but lithium.

Understanding Lithium-ion

BU meta description needed...

batteryuniversity.com

BU-204: How do Lithium Batteries Work?

Learn about lithium-ion batteries and their different types. They have high energy density, relatively low self-discharge but they also have limitations.

batteryuniversity.com

BU-205: Types of Lithium-ion

Become familiar with the many different types of lithium-ion batteries: Lithium Cobalt Oxide, Lithium Manganese Oxide, Lithium Iron Phosphate and more.

batteryuniversity.com

BU-808: How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries

BU meta description needed...

batteryuniversity.com

 

[Rocketman]

Or I can buy the additional 48v rack batteries, parallel then with the Battleborns and pray nothing explodes.

Nothing will explode.

At worst one bank will do most/all the heavy lifting until it is almost gone - then the other bank kicks in. That is not ideal and may be caused by your wiring or the batteries.

Most likely they will work together just fine. But you will want to watch the current flows - I.E- a clamp on digital multimeter.

Do the reading above and also the Victron “Wiring unlimited”. You need to learn about your power grid.

Good Luck

 

[Frank in Thailand]

excellent documentation from Victron!!

Margreet Leeftink, Bedankt!!
(Dutch for Thank you)

68 pages of in-depth knowledge that everyone should read, or at least skimm, and confirm your existing knowledge is in par with this bundle of knowledge, shared for free

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/The_Wiring_Unlimited_book/43562-Wiring_Unlimited-pdf-en.pdf

 

[DrZ123]

Nothing will explode.

At worst one bank will do most/all the heavy lifting until it is almost gone - then the other bank kicks in. That is not ideal and may be caused by your wiring or the batteries.

Most likely they will work together just fine. But you will want to watch the current flows - I.E- a clamp on digital multimeter.

Do the reading above and also the Victron “Wiring unlimited”. You need to learn about your power grid.

Good Luck

This is good news! I think I'll do this. Buy 4 server rack 48v 100ah batteries, parallel them to my current system, and see how it works out.

The cables from each battery to the bus bar need to be the same length correct? So that's going to take a little playing with, but besides that should be a pretty straightforward addition.

Then if I need more wattage, I can add a second Victron properly, and if I need more solar, just add panels.

 

[DrZ123]

Is the only reason to add a second Victron connected to the first for if I need dual phase? Otherwise they can just be connected to add wattage?

 

[Frank in Thailand]

Is the only reason to add a second Victron connected to the first for if I need dual phase? Otherwise they can just be connected to add wattage?

Dual phase?

That's a new terminology for me.
Americas know something called split phase.

There is single phase.
Three phase.

Dual? That's a new one.

Normally you connect 2 or more units to increase the power output.
That's called parallel.

Like you would also parallel a battery to get higher capacity.

If you would like to have higher voltage, you would place them (Battery = DC) in series

AC can not be like that in series due their phasing that need to be synchronized.
With 3 phases you do have higher voltage, and each phase its own amperage.

Together that results in higher wattage.

Please do read:

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/The_Wiring_Unlimited_book/43562-Wiring_Unlimited-pdf-en.pdf

Yes, it's a lot of pages.

Yes, electricity can and WILL KILL you if you have no idea what you are playing around with.

I can only assume that you have been reading the "battery university" links, and know now all about this.

For AC, please study the excellent victron document.

If it is something you are not conferable with, ask a specialist to assist you, or hire an installer.

DIY is 90% study, 10% actually doing stuff.

 

[DrZ123]

I meant split phase sorry

 

[Frank in Thailand]

Two-phase electric power - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Actually... Two phase did exist.
About a hundred years ago and is no longer in use.

 

[Frank in Thailand]

The Victron document will explain in depth and in understandable language how and what.

As I'm not part of the Americas but the rest of the globe, I'm not burning my fingers on any advice related to split phase.

Are you sure you are willing to put in the work, study, diy, fail, diy more, fail, buy new stuff, fail again, study some more and after several months of agony have a nice working system?

It does make most of us DIY 'ers proud, and usually we don't talk about the many mistakes and pains along the way to the end result.

Only my batteries...
I lost $8000 in a lithium fire.
I lost $4000 on lead acid due a defective Chinese inverter.

Inverters.. before I had a stable working solution.. (if I would have chosen Victron, probably would have saved a lot)
3* "Easun" crap (that fried the lead acid) $2000, $1000 back
Other brands.. $3000
Mppt's... Boy, I've brurned a lot.
Must, powmr (who actually aren't bad) several pwm no names, some other no names...

Living at a farm (lots of dust), hot humid Thailand (+40c regular base, shed tin roof... While "open"...
You get the idea

So safe to say I burned $15.000 to learn.

I did not have a choice.
Rural Thailand, that time, no knowledge about solar, inverter and so on.
Not in the capacity I was building.
(+ 14kw solar, +50kwh battery)

Add the pandemic in the mix, and the choice was simple:
No / limited electricity, usually by a generator or.. DIY and educate.

Pandemic did make it a LOT more difficult and more expensive.

Knowledge that would be available, 6-700 km away from us, and not willing to visit to make an assessment.

Looking back, I should just have offered a few thousand dollars to do the inspection and pay several more to do the installation, and provide warranty.

But...
Then I would not be on this forum and bore you with my story and advice

 

[DrZ123]

Signature solar made some nice suggestions to round out the system including a second 5000w Victron Quattro, a rack for the 4 EG4s, some Victron lynx busbars.

They also recommended a Victron autotransformer. Is that necessary?