got fined 1k for an off-grid, 500 dollar, 9 panel system i lay on the roof

[sircambridge]

Hi everyone, I recently got dinged a 1000usd fine for what I believe to be a no-mount, off-grid system I put up a few weeks ago.

I bought 10x used 250 watt trina panels off facebook marketplace for 50 dollars each, and got a 5k growatt off-grid inverter and hooked it up to exclusively power my outdoor AC unit. I decided to be ambitious and throw them up on the roof, and planned to remove them before the rainy/windy season when it cools down. (I also added some spacers so theres a 1-inch gap above the roof, this is not in the photo attached)

maybe I was incredibly unlucky, but within 2 weeks the neighbor on my back side that is in view on the roof happened to have solar installers over on their roof, and I saw one of the guys take a picture. a few weeks later a "code enforcer" showed up and they fined me 1000 usd for an unpermitted solar install.

I happily removed the panels from the roof, restored everything and paid the fine, but I can now confirm the "no-mount, off-grid = no permit" is totally up to the inspector here in san jose, california. I dont plan to try and fight it, but the violation states that it was an "unpermitted solar install, installed on the roof, and hooked up to house electrical system".

I definitely dont want to fight the inspectors, since they are the ones that have the final say, but I do wonder if it was a correct interpretation of the code.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

NFPA NEC 2017+ requires panel mounted on a roof to have module level disconnects, i.e., a disconnect at every panel. This is for the protection of fire fighters engaging in roof operations. Your panels, while not permanently mounted, were still present and represented a potential high voltage hazard for firefighters. Not allowed.

Unmounted panels on a roof also represent 50# projectiles. I'd hate to be liable for that.

You are in California. You have requirements above and beyond NEC with which you must comply.

 

[MurphyGuy]

Don't they have to give you a warning first?

 

[sircambridge]

Don't they have to give you a warning first?

yeah I was more expecting a warning first.

 

[sircambridge]

NFPA NEC 2017+ requires panel mounted on a roof to have module level disconnects, i.e., a disconnect at every panel. This is for the protection of fire fighters engaging in roof operations. Your panels, while not permanently mounted, were still present and represented a potential high voltage hazard for firefighters. Not allowed.

Unmounted panels on a roof also represent 50# projectiles. I'd hate to be liable for that.

You are in California. You have requirements above and beyond NEC with which you must comply.

thanks for the info.

based on your input about roof and firefighters, what if I had lay them on the ground? I actually have tons of space on the ground.

another follow up question : what if i had them on top of a pergola?

(im not trying to start a fight, im actually 100% genuinely curious, I already know I was in the wrong and i paid a fine and removed them)

 

[Brett V]

You’re on their radar now. I’d be willing to bet if you do anything with those panels, your government overlords will swoop in and hit you for a second time.

 

[Rednecktek]

NFPA NEC 2017+ requires panel mounted on a roof to have module level disconnects, i.e., a disconnect at every panel.

What about string inverters? Or do the MC4 connectors on each panel count?

 

[hwy17]

The electrical industry benefits from a lot of legal protectionism and they like it that way. Can't even go test your way into a license, gotta be initiated into the gang by working for years under one of the made men.

There's basically not a way to install an array with wiring that goes into a structure without requiring a permit. If you have 1 panel keeping a battery charged or something or a portable jackery unit that's ok, but anything powering an A/C unit will be considered a permanent installation even if the panels are on the ground.

At least in San Jose I believe they do let you pull solar permits DIY. We can't in santa cruz but we also have much less code enforcement.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

What about string inverters?

The disconnect has to be automatic, i.e., if the main cut off switch is engaged, the panel attached shutdown module activates. Since voltage is the concern, I would assume the unit actually shorts the panel internally to eliminate voltage.

Some Tigo optimizers have this function built-in ($50/panel), and they make standalone cut-offs ($35/panel) as well.

Microinverters take care of it since they're already on each panel.

Or do the MC4 connectors on each panel count?

No. The PV panel must not present a shock hazard to someone on the roof.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

thanks for the info.

based on your input about roof and firefighters, what if I had lay them on the ground? I actually have tons of space on the ground.

Ground arrays have their own NEC requirements. Having a high voltage source laying on the ground likely violates some rule.

another follow up question : what if i had them on top of a pergola?

Since a pergola is not a "walkable" structure, it is not subject to the same requirements. This would likely be classified as a ground mount and subject to NEC/permitting requirements. This is a loophole that I'm considering for myself if I ever take the plunge. I have enough porch to where I could install about 5kW of PV as a ground mount. The idea another $900 of optimizer/shutoff modules just pisses me off.

In my town, permits are not required; however, all PV installations of any kind must be in compliance with NEC 2017.

(im not trying to start a fight, im actually 100% genuinely curious, I already know I was in the wrong and i paid a fine and removed them)

No worries. I get it.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

BTW... I am a little shocked that a fine is not preceded by a warning. I have received an occasional "love letter" from my municipality for various residential code violations and was fined once... AFTER receiving a notice.

Given my low opinion of the CA bureaucracy, I'm not actually surprised.

 

[Hedges]

Wired to power A/C seems to be part of the problem.
You should be able to get a permit for generator input to breaker panel.
If you put your equipment on a vehicle, trailer, cabover camper, that would be personal property.

Actually powering the house from a generator is allowed during power outages; doing so other times could technically be a violation. But that is likely more about noise and odor. An extension cord from something is discrete and can be removed. I think the rules on ESS now even address powering house from vehicle.

 

[Tulex]

NFPA NEC 2017+ requires panel mounted on a roof to have module level disconnects, i.e., a disconnect at every panel.

This is something I was totally unaware of. What is this even? I'm googling, not finding anything. I mean, hardware wise.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

This is something I was totally unaware of. What is this even? I'm googling, not finding anything. I mean, hardware wise.

Tigo TS4 Rapid Shutdown Solutions

The TS4 platform from Tigo allows for several different solutions for module level rapid shutdown. Complies with NEC 2014, 2017, and 2020 rapid shutdown requirements.

www.altestore.com

Some of their optimizers include this feature as well. IMHO, might as well buy the optimizer instead.

 

[Tulex]

Tigo TS4 Rapid Shutdown Solutions

The TS4 platform from Tigo allows for several different solutions for module level rapid shutdown. Complies with NEC 2014, 2017, and 2020 rapid shutdown requirements.

www.altestore.com

Some of their optimizers include this feature as well. IMHO, might as well buy the optimizer instead.

Thanks, I've never seen these come into play in all the research I've done for DIY installation of panels.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Thanks, I've never seen these come into play in all the research I've done for DIY installation of panels.

2017 NEC 690.12 Rapid Shutdown – Important Changes

Learn more about the important changes to the 2017 NEC 690.12 Rapid Shutdown code.

www.purepower.com

Rapid Shutdown Code – Part 2 (Effective after January 1, 2019)

<snip>

What this means to you:

This “inside the array boundary” part is all new and doesn’t resemble the previous requirements. Sub-item 1 requires a UL standard that isn't out yet, and sub-item 3 is intended for BIPV, so we will skip both.

Sub-item 2 is the big one that changes the rooftop solar industry. Simply put, it's limiting the string voltage to 80Vdc. The days of 600V or 1000V strings are over… unless you use optimizers or MLPE that can throttle the voltage down to 80V when rapid shutdown is initiated. The 2 common & currently available ways to comply with this requirement will be:

1. String inverters with Module Level Power Electronics (MLPE) such as optimizers
2. Microinverters

For commercial scale projects microinverters don’t scale well, so using string inverters with MLPE or optimizers will be the most common solution. Yes this means you will need to start budgeting for higher Capital and Operating Expenses for projects in 2019 and beyond. As 2019 and 2020 progress, many innovative and cost-effective solutions will come to market, but there will be growing pains using the first products off the manufacturing line so be sure to increase your O&M budget! (We recommend PV Pros for third party O&M).

 

[Johno1066]

Hell I'm glad I live free.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Hell I'm glad I live free.

Sovereign Citizen?

 

[zanydroid]

FWIW $1K is well above how much PG&E interconnect application and permits would cost. I believe my current permit + interconnect cost <$500 (and I have two AHJ layer + PG&E to pay)

I would count yourself lucky that the solar panels stayed in place. I don't even like leaving my building materials staged temporarily on the roof for more than 12 hours without bolting it down.

As for ground mount permitting, in my town on the peninsula there are setback rules. I can't remember if they are state or local building code. Anyway if you have an suburban lot, you probably don't have many viable ground mount options wrt the area you are allowed to build on. Or if you do... you probably have so much net worth that it's weird that you're participating on this forum.

Why are you spending the time/effort to install/uninstall temporary solar panels? Isn't it more efficient to one and done the solar? Unless you are optimizing for strength training.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Or if you do... you probably have so much net worth that it's weird that you're participating on this forum.

Why are you spending the time/effort to install/uninstall temporary solar panels? Isn't it more efficient to one and done the solar? Unless you are optimizing for strength training.

funny shit right there...