got fined 1k for an off-grid, 500 dollar, 9 panel system i lay on the roof

[zanydroid]

Wasn't implying you don't or that you wouldn't want to. Just pointing out that a permit may not be needed, at least immediately.

OK makes sense. My concern is that the English in the regulation is a bit opaque, and I wanted to clarify my interpretation,.

In my city there are numerous kinds of (non-solar) projects that can be installed on permanent or temporary basis with part or all permits waived. But they still require that the non-waived permits (there are multiple departments that need to sign off, each issues part of the permit) and building code still need to be applied for. For varying levels of clarity in the documentation. I guess that's why they have office hours.

 

[Pilot Bob]

The 2017 NEC requires a rapid shutdown device for building mounted panels. Voltage in conductors outside the array (more than 3’) must be 30V or less within 30 seconds after turning off the RSD. Conductors within the array boundary must be 80V or less within 30 seconds. The 2020 NEC requires the RSD to control voltage at the module. No voltage is allowed outside the module when you turn off the RSD.

 

[tialiden]

A few code related questions. What if I mount my panels to top of a shipping container, (thereby moveable, non-taxable structure, not classified as roof mount, not a livable space, etc.) I would like to eventually switch to off-grid. Starting with 20Kw of panels (in N. TX) and I have 4 HYP4850U100 Hybrid inverters. Let's assume I'd be on Dallas NEC requirements. The options I'd have to consider are 1: To have 48v bat in the container, with the four inverters and then run 2/0 2/0 2/0 4/0 mobile home wiring to my house into a separate 200A service and move over each circuit as I see fit, and perhaps eventually turning off grid power completely.
Or 2: To run 450vdc to house and mount the 4 inverters in (2+2 mode, SP) & Bat, and do same with a 200A separate panel to move circuits over as needed.
To make this easier and more cost effective can I have my new 200A panel at the opposite end of the house (does code allow two MSP's opposite ends of house??), while the utility MSP is in use at same time? I'm probably leaving some key bits out, I'd be happy to fill those in as needed.

 

[Steve_S]

1) Every State has it's own rules about what does or doesn't need permits / inspections etc. Some regions/counties have ther own "bit" too.
2) DC is not meant for long distance. The battery packs need to be as close to thw inverters as possible. So installing batteries, Inverter into the Seacan with Solar on a rack mount (either attached or not to seacan) and then running your AC power out to the Target Structure is the simplest and most "isolated" PLUS the Least Expensive... You have no idea what 100' of double 4/0 would cost you. (nutz)
3) ON Grid Connected for a Feed In Tariff situation, things are complicated, needs permits & inspections. (Most Commonly)
4) OFF grid with no feed to Grid can be simpler but that varies from region to region...
5) Insurance Companies CANNOT BE FORGOTTEN, they can be such a PITA. They will make complications and want inspections etc... Never forget those bums, any excuse to deny any claims...

 

[rodrick]

A few code related questions. What if I mount my panels to top of a shipping container, (thereby moveable, non-taxable structure, not classified as roof mount, not a livable space, etc.) I would like to eventually switch to off-grid. Starting with 20Kw of panels (in N. TX) and I have 4 HYP4850U100 Hybrid inverters. Let's assume I'd be on Dallas NEC requirements. The options I'd have to consider are 1: To have 48v bat in the container, with the four inverters and then run 2/0 2/0 2/0 4/0 mobile home wiring to my house into a separate 200A service and move over each circuit as I see fit, and perhaps eventually turning off grid power completely.
Or 2: To run 450vdc to house and mount the 4 inverters in (2+2 mode, SP). To make this easier and more cost effective can I have my new 200A panel at the opposite end of the house, while the utility MSP is in use at same time? I'm probably leaving some key bits out, I'd be happy to fill those in as needed.

I would think keeping everything in the container and only pull ac from it ie a large solar generator you would have the least issues with regulations

 

[Kenny_]

FWIW $1K is well above how much PG&E interconnect application and permits would cost. I believe my current permit + interconnect cost <$500 (and I have two AHJ layer + PG&E to pay)

I would count yourself lucky that the solar panels stayed in place. I don't even like leaving my building materials staged temporarily on the roof for more than 12 hours without bolting it down.

As for ground mount permitting, in my town on the peninsula there are setback rules. I can't remember if they are state or local building code. Anyway if you have an suburban lot, you probably don't have many viable ground mount options wrt the area you are allowed to build on. Or if you do... you probably have so much net worth that it's weird that you're participating on this forum.

Why are you spending the time/effort to install/uninstall temporary solar panels? Isn't it more efficient to one and done the solar? Unless you are optimizing for strength training.

Yeah.... Just ran across this thread and it concerns me as I'm currently 'running rogue' for a couple of months now. Testing/considering whether to invest further in going 'full legal' and at this point (after spending some $10k) and running into numerous frustrations I'm not sure I will continue...still we have some asshole code inspectors here and I'm somewhat anxious that I'm going to get a 'knock on the door' (or a warning taped to it as I don't tend to answer the door unless I'm expecting someone or see who it is via my Ring Camera and choose to Not Answer LOL).

In any case thanks for the thread and the info/comments!

 

[Kenny_]

Seems to me like he was just experimenting and learning how things work. He was not connected to the house or the grid at all. Sorry excuse my anger but moronic code enforcement officers and crybaby rip off solar installers really piss me off.

Yes! Agree Completely! We got some real idiot Bureaucrats here that love to exercise their power over the little people!

 

[JWLV]

As far as I know, code enforcement in most cities are way understaffed. It's something like 1 inspector per 50,000-100,000 people.
So my question is, which one of your neighbors made a complaint to code enforcement? They don't go out looking for code violations on their own. Someone has to make a complaint and probably submit photos. And then it takes a few months for them to come out to take a look.

 

[BartHenry]

The thing you are all overlooking is the fact that the panels were not properly installed and this caught someone's attention. If you would of left them on the ground you would have been fine.

 

[Kenny_]

The thing you are all overlooking is the fact that the panels were not properly installed and this caught someone's attention. If you would of left them on the ground you would have been fine.

That's what I'm hoping, and why I just put mine in the back yard....trying to avoid attention....for now...I may go full legal in the spring/summer when the IRA/HEERA rebates are available/in place...

 

[tialiden]

1) Every State has it's own rules about what does or doesn't need permits / inspections etc. Some regions/counties have ther own "bit" too.
2) DC is not meant for long distance. The battery packs need to be as close to thw inverters as possible. So installing batteries, Inverter into the Seacan with Solar on a rack mount (either attached or not to seacan) and then running your AC power out to the Target Structure is the simplest and most "isolated" PLUS the Least Expensive... You have no idea what 100' of double 4/0 would cost you. (nutz)
3) ON Grid Connected for a Feed In Tariff situation, things are complicated, needs permits & inspections. (Most Commonly)
4) OFF grid with no feed to Grid can be simpler but that varies from region to region...
5) Insurance Companies CANNOT BE FORGOTTEN, they can be such a PITA. They will make complications and want inspections etc... Never forget those bums, any excuse to deny any claims...

Thanks for the response. I think you misunderstood my option 2. I would also have the battery in the house as well. No way am I running all that copper to the house from a Seacan as you call it. So Option 2 for me would be way cheaper because I should just need to run the PV cable through a buried conduit from the Seacan to the house.

I had an epiphany today on where I can place the Seacan so as to keep the distance short as possible (maybe 100') and it would not be entering the opposite end of the house, it would be in the garage with my MSP, my offgrid MSP, and my batteries and inverters. Only downside is I am going to cut down some trees to clear a solar path, but it's a win because it's easier to have them deliver it and it's the most hidden from all but one neighbor, and I like fewer gripey neighbor risks.

OR I put everything in the container and do the AC run (but with my epiphany I no longer have to run overhead, and could pretty easily trench and conduit the AC line. Still on the fence. I do see Option A being the safest option if there's a fire.

 

[windsurfer]

2) DC is not meant for long distance. The battery packs need to be as close to thw inverters as possible.

Tell that to Thomas Edison. Edison Illumination Company was founded to provide dc power distribution in New York.

 

[Hedges]

Sure, DC can be sent long distances with IR drop just the same as AC.
And there is talk of HV DC transmission lines. Also superconducting.

Back in those days, no DC/DC converters to boost or reduce voltage. Motor-generator would have been needed. Transformers for AC are more convenient.

But for DIY PV systems here ...

When 48V (or 12V) DC from battery to inverter is used to make 120V or 240V AC, losses in DC is many times greater than in AC, for same distance and wire gauge.

More important is distance from SCC to battery, unless SCC has remote voltage sense (something I haven't seen.)

What is least significant is IR drop between PV panels and SCC, unless that is excessively low voltage. The equipment works just fine with large voltage drop in that path.

 

[Will Prowse]

Ground arrays have their own NEC requirements. Having a high voltage source laying on the ground likely violates some rule.



Since a pergola is not a "walkable" structure, it is not subject to the same requirements. This would likely be classified as a ground mount and subject to NEC/permitting requirements. This is a loophole that I'm considering for myself if I ever take the plunge. I have enough porch to where I could install about 5kW of PV as a ground mount. The idea another $900 of optimizer/shutoff modules just pisses me off.

In my town, permits are not required; however, all PV installations of any kind must be in compliance with NEC 2017.



No worries. I get it.

Do you know what rules? It side steps the fire safety codes and most local ordinances. Usually throwing panels on the ground is the best way to avoid permits. Would love for someone to prove me wrong on this.

 

[Will Prowse]

The thing you are all overlooking is the fact that the panels were not properly installed and this caught someone's attention. If you would of left them on the ground you would have been fine.

Yeah, they looked like a hazard. Anything on a roof needs to be secured. Don't want a 50 lbs glass panel flying off and hitting a kid in the head.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Do you know what rules?

Nope, just an assumption. I've done it many times as well.

It side steps the fire safety codes and most local ordinances. Usually throwing panels on the ground is the best way to avoid permits.

Agree. If nothing else, it's impossible to argue the arrangement is not "temporary" in nature.

 

[Kenny_]

Nope, just an assumption. I've done it many times as well.



Agree. If nothing else, it's impossible to argue the arrangement is not "temporary" in nature.

Yep...all kinds of municipal codes round here, I'm sure they'd trump up something...

 

[cs1234]

It would likely also depend on if you have it connected to your building, supplying power to the inside vs just charging some batteries outside.

 

[chilly2]

Why are you spending the time/effort to install/uninstall temporary solar panels? Isn't it more efficient to one and done the solar? Unless you are optimizing for strength training.

Given the small size of the system (2500W), it's possible he wanted to dip a toe in to begin with. Regardless of the "getting one over on the man / living free / etc" stuff, it's hard to commit tens of thousands on a serious setup without the confidence it's going to work out for your situation.

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

Yeah, they looked like a hazard. Anything on a roof needs to be secured. Don't want a 50 lbs glass panel flying off and hitting a kid in the head.

some of them we do! I would laugh my ass off the day the headlines read 4 crack dealers killed by flying solar panel.