Midnite Solar Announced their new 10kw AIO at Intersolar Today

[Brucey]

If I was your vendor, and I read this in a public forum, I would be unhappy with the sense of propriety expressed here. Do you really intend to suppress your vendor's ability to grow and work for others? In the long term, the more they work for others, the more they gain experience, and the better able they will be to serve you, too.

Mike C.

Sounds like their vendor also builds equipment for Eaton, so not exactly stifling their operation. If anything the Midnite venture is a growth opportunity for them.

 

[littleharbor2]

Very little IP protection in China.

Look familiar?

 

[Brucey]

Look familiar?

View attachment 214399

Just like the fake Victron SCCs, if the name wasn't different, hard to tell until you connect up the vedirect port and try and update it's firmware....

 

[sunsurfer]

The new MidNite AIO has a separate 60 amp gen input. That same input can also be a 60 amp smart load output. One or the other. Nobody has correctly figured out our manufacturing facility. We need to keep that confidential as others would want to use the them. We have put too much Time, money and IP into this company to let others use them.

If I was your vendor, and I read this in a public forum, I would be unhappy with the sense of propriety expressed here. Do you really intend to suppress your vendor's ability to grow and work for others? In the long term, the more they work for others, the more they gain experience, and the better able they will be to serve you, too.

Mike C.

He is talking about manufacturing IP and trade secrets, not sure what that has to do with sales. There are laws protecting trade secrets. Pretty standard stuff.

 

[sunsurfer]

The new MidNite AIO has a separate 60 amp gen input. That same input can also be a 60 amp smart load output.

Some day, it would be nice to have a smart load output standard that could work with appliances. Divert all that unused solar to heating or cooling as the batts come up to charge. A simple control signal (standardized PWM reference would work) so DC appliances could divert directly at the batts.

 

[Hedges]

One way to do that with AC loads (for off-grid operation) is frequency shift.
Rule-21 inverters ramp down power output from 100% at 60.5 Hz to 0% at 61 Hz.
A motor speed control or heating element PWM (with PFC on AC input) could ramp up from 0% draw at 60 Hz to 100% draw at 60.5 Hz.

 

[mciholas]

He is talking about manufacturing IP and trade secrets, not sure what that has to do with sales.

They are using a CM (contract manufacturer). He indicated he wants to keep them from having other customers by saying this:

"We need to keep that confidential as others would want to use the them."

That's not saying others would use MNS IP, it is saying MNS wants to block the CM from new customers.

There are ways to find out where it is being built so the "secret" won't last long. I suspect the statement was intended mostly to create an aura of exclusivity and exceptionalism about the product, not so much about the CM actually being secret or captured.

Mike C.

 

[sunsurfer]

They are using a CM (contract manufacturer). He indicated he wants to keep them from having other customers by saying this:

"We need to keep that confidential as others would want to use the them."

That's not saying others would use MNS IP, it is saying MNS wants to block the CM from new customers.

There are ways to find out where it is being built so the "secret" won't last long. I suspect the statement was intended mostly to create an aura of exclusivity and exceptionalism about the product, not so much about the CM actually being secret or captured.

Mike C.

Well, thats some speculation on the intent. Still, pretty standard stuff. No harm in trying to protect a buisness investment. There are two standard ways to protect IP, patents and trade secrets.

Protection for innovation is what built this country. Who wants to innovate if someone can just steal your idea and all your hard work becomes worthless? Its good for advancement of technology and has been proven over the decades.

 

[Q-Dog]

They are using a CM (contract manufacturer). He indicated he wants to keep them from having other customers by saying this:

"We need to keep that confidential as others would want to use the them."

That's not saying others would use MNS IP, it is saying MNS wants to block the CM from new customers.

There are ways to find out where it is being built so the "secret" won't last long. I suspect the statement was intended mostly to create an aura of exclusivity and exceptionalism about the product, not so much about the CM actually being secret or captured.

Mike C.

If you pay a contract manufacturer to tool up for production of your product, would you want them to use your investement to turn around and start manufacturing a competing product before you even hit the market? I doubt it.

 

[mciholas]

If you pay a contract manufacturer to tool up for production of your product, would you want them to use your investement to turn around and start manufacturing a competing product before you even hit the market? I doubt it.

The CM has no rights to the MNS design, so this isn't an issue about them using that IP for others.

You guys are confusing IP rights with business sovereignty. The CM has the right to seek out other business with other companies building other things. That is, unless MNS is paying them an appropraite amount of money to establish an exclusivity in some way, but that money has to make up for the lost business opportunity.

I think this all just promotional talk and the secrecy of their CM is really not really at issue here. This is just "make the customer feel special" stuff.

Mike C.

 

[Q-Dog]

The CM has no rights to the MNS design, so this isn't an issue about them using that IP for others.

You guys are confusing IP rights with business sovereignty. The CM has the right to seek out other business with other companies building other things. That is, unless MNS is paying them an appropraite amount of money to establish an exclusivity in some way, but that money has to make up for the lost business opportunity.

I think this all just promotional talk and the secrecy of their CM is really not really at issue here. This is just "make the customer feel special" stuff.

Mike C.

And this is all just speculation since you have no idea what arrangement Midnite has with this manufacturer. I'll defer to the president of the company.

 

[G00SE]

The CM has no rights to the MNS design, so this isn't an issue about them using that IP for others.

You guys are confusing IP rights with business sovereignty. The CM has the right to seek out other business with other companies building other things. That is, unless MNS is paying them an appropraite amount of money to establish an exclusivity in some way, but that money has to make up for the lost business opportunity.

I think this all just promotional talk and the secrecy of their CM is really not really at issue here. This is just "make the customer feel special" stuff.

Mike C.

And you are confusing American law with Chinese practice

 

[Mahendra Gomanie]

Look familiar?

View attachment 214399

lol that's it's

 

[Mahendra Gomanie]

Just like the fake Victron SCCs, if the name wasn't different, hard to tell until you connect up the vedirect port and try and update its firmware....

Initially it was listed as Outback fm80 on Alibaba. I got it from an ad when I came across it

 

[Quattrohead]

Lighten up Mike C and enjoy life.
Stop being so suspicious of everything typed here, it's only the interwebs.

 

[Mahendra Gomanie]

And this is all just speculation since you have no idea what arrangement Midnite has with this manufacturer. I'll defer to the president of the company.

I think I was established on one of these threads that Sol-ark has a similar Legal arrangement with Deye.

 

[glandpuck]

They are using a CM (contract manufacturer). He indicated he wants to keep them from having other customers by saying this:

"We need to keep that confidential as others would want to use the them."

That's not saying others would use MNS IP, it is saying MNS wants to block the CM from new customers.

There are ways to find out where it is being built so the "secret" won't last long. I suspect the statement was intended mostly to create an aura of exclusivity and exceptionalism about the product, not so much about the CM actually being secret or captured.

Mike C.

If you hire a contract manufacturer like Foxconn, etc., you shop around the marketplace and do your research. Then you make your best decision. The same way you found them and contracted with them to build your product, just like Apple with it's Iphone other companies and start ups will find them too. The contract manufacturer is not in hiding and in fact attends trade shows and has a sales team. If it was disclosed in this thread who the company is that is building and assembling the product, then at most a competitor would gain is a very small head start. Once this product is in the marketplace, it can be figured out who is doing the build and assembly. Unless they will sell a white label version with no support and maybe no firmware, what good is it?

There is a very popular 12k 18k PV inverter being sold in USA. The product is good, but the level of tech support needs improvement. There is delayed indirect contact with actual engineers of the designing and building company and there is no ability to perform any onsite testing of the product or even send field equipment to the site to be used in remote diagnostic testing.

I think what Midnite offers will be a solid product they can support. On site support would be great too. They have that history.

I think it would be to the advantage of Midnite Solar to recruit and train persons to serve territories in the capacity of onsite tech support for the inverter after installation. They could troubleshoot at the request of tech support, perform field upgrades and direct testing and facilitate RMA's when needed. The onsite persons would be in the form of independent contractors on call which is a format many corporations use today.

Imagine if this tech person was trained in Sol-Ark/Luxpower/Midnite/SMA inverters, how much that could help the solar community.

What Sol-Ark offers is a technical support group that is pretty much at or equal to the engineering level of that inverter so issues can be solved with a degree of deductive reasoning that works. That alone is worth something.

 

[NC_hydro]

Th

If I was your vendor, and I read this in a public forum, I would be unhappy with the sense of propriety expressed here. Do you really intend to suppress your vendor's ability to grow and work for others? In the long term, the more they work for others, the more they gain experience, and the better able they will be to serve you, too.

Mike C.

That might be true if it was not a Chinese company. But it is and MNS is making the right call. If you want a cheap Beta Box (Eg4) Chinese knock-off, just get one.

 

[NC_hydro]

They are using a CM (contract manufacturer). He indicated he wants to keep them from having other customers by saying this:

"We need to keep that confidential as others would want to use the them."

That's not saying others would use MNS IP, it is saying MNS wants to block the CM from new customers.

There are ways to find out where it is being built so the "secret" won't last long. I suspect the statement was intended mostly to create an aura of exclusivity and exceptionalism about the product, not so much about the CM actually being secret or captured.

Mike C.

Not sure what your deal is but I think I’ve found a new person to block.

 

[glandpuck]

I suppose Midnite could have gone to Germany or Austria for their contract manufacturing. After all, SMA and Fronius are very reputable companies. But final pricing and margins could be an issue. That leaves Japan and South Korea.