My daughter is shopping for an ev she is looking at a bolt

[ksmithaz1]

"about 15 seconds"

The time it take to open the flap and plug it in. The rest happens when I'm doing other things.

*IF* you can plug in L2 at home this is the #1 benefit of an EV. The only time I ever charged elsewhere is when I've been on a trip, or plugged in at a free Volta station while shopping or something. I will say this as a word of advice for the OP's daughter: Before you decide to take your first EV road trip, get the apps on your phone for EA, and any other outfit that has DCFC in your area, and along the route. Take a day and find one of the stations near where you live, and go over and fight er use it once, put $10 in or something, and familiarize yourself with how they annoy, er work before you get happy er frustrated driving a couple hundred miles to see a friend.

 

[Johneb]

Yeah. Watch idocracy. Great documentary of the future for mankind.

Our son Kevin was the "Ow, my balls!" guy.

 

[ksmithaz1]

The concern about blending was exceeding the max regen from foot action (and a good blend would make it hard to detect, I need to find a visual indicator in the car). I know roughly what the max regen is from the iPedal behavior and paddle brake behavior. The max regen is below ABS threshold.

Again, this is of interest, there seems to be limited information, and obviously different cars may have different behavior. I've been on insideev's quite a while, and I've not found anything other than anecdotal and opinion on much of this topic. I'll hit it again, but if you have any citations I'd like to read them. Some of what you are saying is contradicting what I have read in the past, but the industry is in it's infancy, and things are changing, oddly can now change with an OTA update, and you don't even know.

 

[Supervstech]

Our son Kevin was the "Ow, my balls!" guy.

Figuratively, or actually the actor?

 

[Johneb]

Actually the actor. Not only did he have padding, he also wore a device to tranfer the energy elsewhere. He said he still felt it.

 

[Johneb]

But to the original subject. We had a Nissan leaf with the 30kw battery. I liked it except for the range. My wife hated it., so we no longer have it. I am thinking of getting another ev with greater range, Leaf,Bolt etc.. Just not a Tesla. Don't like the way they look inside or the kind of money they want for them. Just want it for local running around. Will use our ice vehicle for long range.

 

[Orangesauce]

On Hyundai cruise control can brake to zero and speed up. On Auto regen, OPD is off, increases Regen if it sees slowing ahead, only brakes to 6mph (need to use either brake pedal or brake paddle), and does not speed up. I'm not super convinced this user experience is safe vs OPD, auto off, which always behaves the same; Cruise control also slams the brakes sooner than auto (if auto even does that) if someone stops.

Same with the Audis on cruise control. I think that's become pretty standard actually, so you won't be embarrassing yourself to teach them. My spidey sense is they are training us all on semi-autonomous driving, one step at a time!

 

[wattmatters]

Do y’all have BYD EV down there?

Yes. Not all models but that will expand. They have some very nice cars and will do very well. They just need to lose their vomit inducing tag line.

Mine is an SAIC MG4. You don't get those in the USA. I think the X-Power model would blow some of your minds. It's the biggest bang for buck in terms of performance of any new car, by a long shot. I don't have that model (not legal for my P-plate wife to drive).

Regenerative braking could be useful where braking is required, like long steep hills. Otherwise, it's purpose is primarily for people who don't take their foot off the gas early when approaching a stop.

I don't see its purpose so narrowly defined. It's just a different way to drive. If I was in a city I'd be using it all the time.

*IF* you can plug in L2 at home this is the #1 benefit of an EV.

Home charging for the win. If you cannot charge from home, or at a regular destination (such as while at your place of work), then the case for an EV diminishes significantly.

My point was, when people ask "how long does it take to charge?", mostly I have no clue, mainly because it automagically happens when I am not using the car. None of my time is spent charging it.

It takes as long as it needs, automatically adjusting the charge rate and when to charge to use the cheapest energy sources I have and when I want to drive again it has ample energy on board. A quick peek on the app and I can see its status:

If I need it filled more quickly or to be filled to 100% (rare), then a quick adjustment in the app is all that's needed.

The car IRL:

 

[zanydroid]

But to the original subject. We had a Nissan leaf with the 30kw battery. I liked it except for the range. My wife hated it., so we no longer have it. I am thinking of getting another ev with greater range, Leaf,Bolt etc.. Just not a Tesla. Don't like the way they look inside or the kind of money they want for them. Just want it for local running around. Will use our ice vehicle for long range.

I think the following are all good in the segment that competes with Leaf

Bolt
Kona EV (big refresh for 2024)
New rev of Nissan Leaf

And keep in mind that used prices for EVs have been a massacre in the past 6 months. So you might be able to get a good new or used price on the tier above (EV6, Ioniq5, etc). For foreign cars you must pursue the $7500 tax credit loop hole for leases. Teslas compete in this segment and are actually the low price leader if you can take the $7500 tax credit for purchases. When I was looking, I don't believe Tesla was doing $7500 lease loophole (some of their EVs need it based on battery origin, and buyers above a certain income will need it).

I highly highly recommend following the model specific subreddits, you'll keep up with the bugs & deals & what the trend is on pricing.

 

[zanydroid]

My point was, when people ask "how long does it take to charge?", mostly I have no clue, mainly because it automagically happens when I am not using the car. None of my time is spent charging it.


It takes as long as it needs, automatically adjusting the charge rate and when to charge to use the cheapest energy sources I have and when I want to drive again it has ample energy on board. A quick peek on the app and I can see its status:

I would characterize this as:

• No need to worry day to day about how long it takes to charge since the car and charger was spec'd to do it automatically for 98% use cases.
• BUT: still need mental model for how long it takes to charge if there is a charging deadline (remaining 2% tail cases)

Handing the car over to someone with only bullet 1 addressed is not good for the tail cases.

 

[zanydroid]

Again, this is of interest, there seems to be limited information, and obviously different cars may have different behavior. I've been on insideev's quite a while, and I've not found anything other than anecdotal and opinion on much of this topic. I'll hit it again, but if you have any citations I'd like to read them. Some of what you are saying is contradicting what I have read in the past, but the industry is in it's infancy, and things are changing, oddly can now change with an OTA update, and you don't even know.

The two things I can think of to self-collect more information are:
1. Set up accelerometer tracking in car to track braking curve (braking acceleration vs time). Maybe a phone app is enough. Accelerometers are cheap so surely this is a solved problem wrt buying one, mounting needs to be done properly though OR know how to correct.
2. Confirm which inputs are guaranteed regen-only
3. Find a visual indicator in the UI

Then combining (2) with (1) you can figure out what the max regen deceleration is.

And then you can try some brake pedal braking to check whether it is possible to input higher braking forces without engaging ABS.

 

[wattmatters]

• BUT: still need mental model for how long it takes to charge if there is a charging deadline (remaining 2% tail cases)

Depends on how far you need to drive and the charge method.

At home on my single phase charger I can add 35-40 (highway) km per hour. 50 km/hour if it were town driving.
If ever I want a full tank of electrons then charging overnight is ample time for that, even from dead empty.

At a DC fast charger I can add between 400-800 km per hour.

I'm sure that's enough info for tail cases to be worked out.
.

Just for some fun, let me confect a "worst case scenario" and compare that same scenario with our ICEV:

Let's say the EV was at 0% SOC AND the ICEV was empty and I needed to get somewhere 160 km (100 miles) away quickly. Which is better?

I'd need about 45-min of charge at home to get me to the nearest DC fast charger heading either north, west or south (east is ocean). Then 10-min on the DC fast charger would be ample. Call it an hour. Bugger. But at least I can get on the road.

If however my ICEV had no fuel (i.e. akin to 0% SOC), then I'd be screwed as I can't fuel it at all from home.

So I'd need to walk to the nearest fuel station to fill a jerry can and walk back. Assuming it is open that is as between 6PM and 6AM it is shut. Google maps tells me I'm up for over an hour of walking, but add 20-min to that as I'm a leg amputee so long walks carrying heavy things are not my favourite pastime. There is another fuel station further afield open until 8PM. That would take me 2.5 hours.

So when at home and out of fuel, waiting a bit for the EV to charge would be WAY faster and a whole lot easier than being stuck with an empty ICEV.

Of course the above scenario is a nonsensical folly but for some reason people like to confect all sorts of "what if" scenarios.
.

My wife does not like to put fuel in the car, she finds it awkward, dirty and smelly and her parking skill is not the most precision for lining up next to the local town's fuel bowser. So I have to do that job. Fortunately not often. Probably 5-6 times/year.

But plugging in a charger at home is no problem for her. It's the same as a phone, just a bigger plug/socket.

 

[wattmatters]

1. Set up accelerometer tracking in car to track braking curve (braking acceleration vs time). Maybe a phone app is enough. Accelerometers are cheap so surely this is a solved problem wrt buying one, mounting needs to be done properly though OR know how to correct.

Pretty sure my EV has that data available via the OBD port.

Frankly it mostly comes down to terrain, type of roads (city/urban/country/highway), environmental conditions and how you drive.

 

[Danke]

Depends on how far you need to drive and the charge method.

At home on my single phase charger I can add 35-40 (highway) km per hour. 50 km/hour if it were town driving.
If ever I want a full tank of electrons then charging overnight is ample time for that, even from dead empty.

At a DC fast charger I can add between 400-800 km per hour.

I'm sure that's enough info for tail cases to be worked out.
.

Just for some fun, let me confect a "worst case scenario" and compare that same scenario with our ICEV:

Let's say the EV was at 0% SOC AND the ICEV was empty and I needed to get somewhere 160 km (100 miles) away quickly. Which is better?

I'd need about 45-min of charge at home to get me to the nearest DC fast charger heading either north, west or south (east is ocean). Then 10-min on the DC fast charger would be ample. Call it an hour. Bugger. But at least I can get on the road.

If however my ICEV had no fuel (i.e. akin to 0% SOC), then I'd be screwed as I can't fuel it at all from home.

So I'd need to walk to the nearest fuel station to fill a jerry can and walk back. Assuming it is open that is as between 6PM and 6AM it is shut. Google maps tells me I'm up for over an hour of walking, but add 20-min to that as I'm a leg amputee so long walks carrying heavy things are not my favourite pastime. There is another fuel station further afield open until 8PM. That would take me 2.5 hours.

So when at home and out of fuel, waiting a bit for the EV to charge would be WAY faster and a whole lot easier than being stuck with an empty ICEV.

Of course the above scenario is a nonsensical folly but for some reason people like to confect all sorts of "what if" scenarios.
.

My wife does not like to put fuel in the car, she finds it awkward, dirty and smelly and her parking skill is not the most precision for lining up next to the local town's fuel bowser. So I have to do that job. Fortunately not often. Probably 5-6 times/year.

But plugging in a charger at home is no problem for her. It's the same as a phone, just a bigger plug/socket.

You might want to bring that car in and fix the fuel leak.

 

[wattmatters]

You might want to bring that car in and fix the fuel leak.

?

The wife not filling the car and leaving it without enough fuel to make it to a service centre is actually a plausible scenario. It almost happened a few weeks ago when she casually mentioned something about the car might need some fuel and could I sort it. It took 54.2 litres to fill. It has a 55 litre tank.

 

[ksmithaz1]

The two things I can think of to self-collect more information are:
1. Set up accelerometer tracking in car to track braking curve (braking acceleration vs time). Maybe a phone app is enough. Accelerometers are cheap so surely this is a solved problem wrt buying one, mounting needs to be done properly though OR know how to correct.
2. Confirm which inputs are guaranteed regen-only
3. Find a visual indicator in the UI

Then combining (2) with (1) you can figure out what the max regen deceleration is.

And then you can try some brake pedal braking to check whether it is possible to input higher braking forces without engaging ABS.

I was looking for documentation about your "blending" argument. *Everything* I have read indicates *all* braking is done thru the regen system until the speed of the car falls below 3-5MPH. There are a few exceptions around slamming on the brakes:

https://www.autotrader.ca/editorial/20230704/your-ultimate-guide-to-regenerative-braking/

According to this the car does not "blend" until the speed falls below this threshold. If you slam on the brakes (panic brake pedal to the floor) the regen will dis-engage and the normal ABS will take over. IMNSHO using L3 regen or single pedal is less efficient than using the lowest regen and controlling deceleration with the brake pedal which simply engages regen at increasing levels as you depress it more. The CW sez higher regen saves energy, an I just don't see it and I was looking for any studies around this and how it affects range.

 

[fromport]

I was looking for documentation about your "blending" argument. *Everything* I have read indicates *all* braking is done thru the regen system until the speed of the car falls below 3-5MPH. There are a few exceptions around slamming on the brakes:

What about cases where the battery is > 9x% full or battery temp is below freezing ?
I am pretty sure most ev's with regenerative breaking have a very nice blended braking.
Not too long ago I was going down a 5% down hill and cruise control was keeping my speed steady. I saw how much energy was pushed back into the battery. When I saw a slowdown and anticipated by slowing down ahead of the car in front of me , i saw the charge energy increase some more and then stopped, applying more pressure slowed the car more down but at that point I was using friction brakes. And I wasn't slamming the brakes. Everything was very smooth. At that point I was thinking how nice regen braking & friction braking was blending together.

 

[Danke]

?

The wife not filling the car and leaving it without enough fuel to make it to a service centre is actually a plausible scenario. It almost happened a few weeks ago when she casually mentioned something about the car might need some fuel and could I sort it. It took 54.2 litres to fill. It has a 55 litre tank.

I see a new fuel pump in your future.

 

[wattmatters]

I see a new fuel pump in your future.

All the more reason to use the EV.

 

[ksmithaz1]

What about cases where the battery is > 9x% full or battery temp is below freezing ?
I am pretty sure most ev's with regenerative breaking have a very nice blended braking.
Not too long ago I was going down a 5% down hill and cruise control was keeping my speed steady. I saw how much energy was pushed back into the battery. When I saw a slowdown and anticipated by slowing down ahead of the car in front of me , i saw the charge energy increase some more and then stopped, applying more pressure slowed the car more down but at that point I was using friction brakes. And I wasn't slamming the brakes. Everything was very smooth. At that point I was thinking how nice regen braking & friction braking was blending together.

Indeed, but increasing your regen level to 3 with paddles is not going to change this behavior or save you any energy. In fact the action you describe is exactly what I stated, and what I'm talking about. Blending occurs when your speed falls below a certain threshold. Has nothing to do with OPD or where you set your regen level. I left Heber late last year, it was around 20F. I set the speed control and coasted down the mountain, picked up quite a bit of juice. Pretty sure it never applied the friction brakes. The batteries have built in buffers, to the point they will actually let you overcharge a bit, if you are rolling and regen kicks in and you are at 100%. Oddly it does not seem to cause much of an issue if you overcharge and then discharge them fairly quickly. I generally charge my cars to 100% at home on L2. Tesla battery research seems to indicate that 100% charging does not seem to degrade the batteries, however lots of DCFC and running them down to zero a lot does. Several youtube videos on this.

There is some EV out there claiming the brakes on the vehicle are purely for redudancy, all stopping is provided by the regen system.