Cost for utility transformer installation?

[zanydroid]

Anyone in the Bay Area knows a good place to buy the ao smith vortex pro hpts? Between the federal credits and peninsula clean energy rebates and DIY, it’s not going to cost me much. I would rather get the best and not the home depot or Lowe’s lineup.

Supplyhouse.com has it, that was my plan (assuming reasonable freight, if it was unreasonable I would have started calling)

Didn’t try calling local supply houses yet since I’m not buying until January at the earliest. Though maybe I should get my back order in.

 

[summit]

may be it's my immaturity, and the general anti-authority tendency; permitting and inspection seems heavy handed. I've seen so many permitted/inspected shoddy jobs. There's also that "priceless" hip-haps from DIY. But some DIYers definitely need the process.

I've installed a GE GeoSpring HPWH in 2013 (bought from Lowes) and it has been working flawlessly, so far, and always in HP mode. In fact, I've disconnected the upper/lower resistive heating elements. The GeoSpring is discontinued, but current models should have improved. For example, the GeoSpring doesn't have the smart for TOU setting, but I've hacked the temperature sensor to avoid the peak PGE hours.

According to Barry at Cinnamon Energy, rebates are not necessarily cost-effective:

IRA Incentives What's Really Available Today? - Cinnamon Energy Systems IRA Incentives What's Really Available Today?

Listen to The Energy Show to learn how much you can save on energy upgrades for your home with the new IRA Incentives.

cinnamon.energy

 

[pvgirl]

According to Barry at Cinnamon Energy, rebates are not necessarily cost-effective:

IRA Incentives What's Really Available Today? - Cinnamon Energy Systems IRA Incentives What's Really Available Today?

Listen to The Energy Show to learn how much you can save on energy upgrades for your home with the new IRA Incentives.

cinnamon.energy

No reference for the "blizzard of paperwork", also in most places permits for a water heater replacement are cheap and simple to get.

 

[Hedges]

PG&E:

"It looks like you won’t be adding any added load to the panel at this time. When you do, please remember to send in a new application showing the added load. I will review the photos and information provided to make sure PG&E Greenbook clearances and requirements are met. Once I have processed your application, I will send you a confirmation email with the next step(s)."

Once I have the service upgrade and GT PV, then I can add heating loads. Which I will operate only to the extent they are cheaper than gas. Once I've paid the sunk cost of PV system, using all the credits will be zero incremental cost. But better to come up short of using all, rather than paying for electric heating at 10x the cost of gas.


In a different county, Silicon Valley Clean Energy offers incentives for homeowners and contractors to put in electric heating appliances.

Rebates | Silicon Valley Power

FutureFit Fundamentals Contractor Training

svcleanenergy.org

SVCE- FutureFit Homes Program

Get up to $8,000 in rebates for upgrading to new electric home appliances. Plus, additional rebates of $5,000 for income-qualified CARE and FERA customers.

svcleanenergy.org

"All-Electric bonus for removal of the gas meter $500"

Uh, no thanks!
One year I blew through my electric surplus and bought electricity for the last month's heating, bill of $700 electric vs. typical $70 for gas heat.

Today's update from PG&E:

Classification: Public

Thank you for being a valued PG&E customer.

This project has been designated as OK TO SERVE, and the appointment may be scheduled when ready.

Panel inspections are required prior to energizing a new panel. Failure to secure a passing inspection will result in your panel not being energized. Please keep this in mind when scheduling an appointment and coordinate accordingly.

Please make sure your electrician is on site on the day and time of the appointment. Failure to do so may result in the appointment being Cancelled/Rescheduled.

Please call (855) xxx-xxxx to schedule the appointment with PG&E. Call at least 7-10 business days in advance to ensure the request date can be approved.

In the event when the appointment needs to be cancel or rescheduled, the scheduling clerks can be contacted at (855) xxx-xxxx during regular business hours (7am-5pm). If you call outside of core business hours, please call 1-800-xxx-xxxx and reference your account.

This application is subject to cancellation if the appointment has not been scheduled within 60 days from the date of this email.

If you are installing an applicant-owned and operated generator, you must call the PG&E Customer Service Line at 800-xxx-xxxx to have the generator noted on the Service Point in our system. This is required in our system so that our field partners are aware of a generator onsite.

If you are adding or changing out any solar equipment now or in the future, gas clearances must be met and it may need relocation to obtain the PTO. If you have questions, please follow up with EGI.

Please Note:

In addition to meeting all NEC and local building codes, PG&E requires that the new panel installation meet the Gas and Electric Service Requirements (Greenbook) in effect at the time of installation. Panels out of compliance will not be energized, and you will remain out of power until infractions are cleared.


Finally, you will be receiving a survey regarding the quality of service that I have provided in handling your project. Since Express Connections is a newly developed team, if you would take the time to provide your feedback, it would greatly assist us in our efforts to refine our processes, and best meet our customer’s needs with excellent service.

For more information on our Greenbook Standards, please click on the link
Electric & Gas Service Requirements (Greenbook)

Thank you,

New Business Representative
PG&E Express Connections
(209) xxx-xxxx xxx@PGE.COM
7:00 a.m. – 3:30 p.m. (M – F)

(Building Renovation Service Center) (1-877-xxx-xxxx)
Click here to submit applications





I had thought I would do the service panel upgrade together with PV installation, but 60 day deadline means I need to get cracking on this part.
Present meter is at corner of house, faces to the side. I want to place new meter just around corner, facing front. This allows all work to be completed with power on until the instant line worker cuts the old drop and crimps to new. Also, new breaker box is 200A main breaker only, allowing circuit to branch out to existing breaker panel and PV disconnect switch.

City of Oakland puts up a bit more obstacle for meter facing street:

"Zoning review is required to relocate a utility meter at or to a street-facing location, though NO Zoning permit or fees are required. Side or rear placement is preferred. However, if it must be located at a street-facing location and may be visible from the public right-of-way, it must be screened (you may propose a large potted plant in front of it, for example). Electrical and/or Plumbing Permits will also be required."

Apply for Utility Meters

The official website of the City of Oakland. Find out about meetings, request City services through OAK 311, or contact the Mayor and City Council.

www.oaklandca.gov

At least the review is fast

"Zoning Clearance (ZC) reviews require up to 3 days"

 

[zanydroid]

However, if it must be located at a street-facing location and may be visible from the public right-of-way, it must be screened (you may propose a large potted plant in front of it, for example).

Why do they care about this?

 

[Hedges]

Facing street, so a matter of appearance.
The PV permits also consider street-facing roof vs. side facing.
Of course, both are visible from the street. Simply Portrait vs. Profile.

To satisfy PG&E, I thought I might have to remove a length of water pipe passing under the new box, relocate faucet.
And, cut back a bush.

Now, I'm thinking I have to tell the city I'll let the bush grow.
Read wirelessly, not like anyone's ever going to have to look at it. And I can reach breaker from the side.

(new panel and meter to go on front, just around corner from meter shown here.)

Cost for utility transformer installation?

What has the utility company charged you for a transformer installation or upgrade on their side of the meter? How flexible/negotiable were they? I have a house in Oakland, CA. with 100A service. To support the PV install I want to do, and for more loads like electric heat (presently all gas)...

diysolarforum.com

 

[Supermo26]

If someone pays $150,000 for an upgraded transformer, do the also still have to pay their power bill when using the transformer they just bought? I need a business plan like this. I can sell stuff to a customer after they build the infrastructure. Humm, like a toll road.
Odd, I thought our electric bill covered maintaining and upgrading infrastructure.

 

[Hedges]

And you'll be allowed 8% profit on the $150k book value. Declining as it is depreciated.
If *I* got the 8%, I might have bought the transformer.

Put in PV, and look forward to paying PG&E a photon tax. It didn't get implemented in California, but at least one state has it.

Maybe if I got one other neighbor to also request 3-phase it would have been free. But the old guys when I was a kid are really old now, and now I'm the old guy, probably the only one who still wants a machine shop.

 

[400bird]

probably the only one who still wants a machine shop.

Definitely not the only one
I figured piles of single to 3-phase VFDs was my best option.

 

[Hedges]

Facing street, so a matter of appearance.
The PV permits also consider street-facing roof vs. side facing.
Of course, both are visible from the street. Simply Portrait vs. Profile.

To satisfy PG&E, I thought I might have to remove a length of water pipe passing under the new box, relocate faucet.
And, cut back a bush.

Now, I'm thinking I have to tell the city I'll let the bush grow.
Read wirelessly, not like anyone's ever going to have to look at it. And I can reach breaker from the side.

(new panel and meter to go on front, just around corner from meter shown here.)

View attachment 179199

Cost for utility transformer installation?

What has the utility company charged you for a transformer installation or upgrade on their side of the meter? How flexible/negotiable were they? I have a house in Oakland, CA. with 100A service. To support the PV install I want to do, and for more loads like electric heat (presently all gas)...

diysolarforum.com

Today's update from PG&E:

This project has been designated as OK TO SERVE, and the appointment may be scheduled when ready.



For more information on our Greenbook Standards, please click on the link
Electric & Gas Service Requirements (Greenbook)

Got permit, went to work cleanly installing the new boxes (sorry, no pictures yet, forgot to get while light.)

Bit of work, was not able to do the 2" EMT S-bends I meant to due to kinking. So I bought a bunch of 45 and 90 degree + couplers. Put a 24" wiring box under the floor joists. Ran conduit from three boxes on two faces of house to that box.

Hand stuffed 2 awg from 125A breaker panel, through Polaris in 200A main breaker only panel, out to 100A fused disconnect. Ran 6 awg ground across two ground rods, water pipe, into main breaker box, through lug, back out under house to gas pipe.

Pulled 40A oven circuit from old panel, relocated to new. Ran 8 awg to backfeed interlocked "generator" breaker on new panel from old (also 40A.)

All done, requested inspection, which occurred today.

Failed.

1) Although 6 awg might be correct ground wire for 200A circuits, and is OK to ground rods, need 4 awg to water pipe. (also use 4 awg to strap hot/cold/gas pipes at water heater; that is presently 10 awg.)

2) Water pipe under breaker panel has to go. Not simply that it sticks out about 2" (a violation), but is metal. He'll let the brickwork which also sticks out slide. I'll remove pipe including stub through brick, and put in a plug.

3) Whole-house surge arrestor required. Will get QO plug-on surge arrestor.

4) 30" clearance needed. Could have water outlet where it comes through brick, but then would have to remove bush. So I'll trim the bush back to its trunk on one side and remove the pipe entirely.

5) Meter is higher than max allowed by PG&E's Green Book, by about 10" (old meter is about 2" too high.) This one is going to be a real pain.

I had these boxes cleanly stacked, meter just above breaker box, and riser to weather head above that.

Cost for utility transformer installation?

What has the utility company charged you for a transformer installation or upgrade on their side of the meter? How flexible/negotiable were they? I have a house in Oakland, CA. with 100A service. To support the PV install I want to do, and for more loads like electric heat (presently all gas)...

diysolarforum.com

Looks like I can relocate meter box to left of breaker box, fit under the decorative shutter. Riser will go in front of shutter. 2" conduit between the two boxes. Won't be fun to bent 3/0 with four 90 degree bends to fit. But this let everything else stay put.

I blow through the 60 day deadline PG&E gave me to have this ready for their inspection. c'est la vie

 

[Hedges]

Since meter on top of breaker box was too high, repositioned to the left.
Riser for overhead service will go where nipple with blue tape is (rainproofing for now.)
Secured every 3' means one clamp through middle of (decorative) shutter louvers.

Rather packed with those wires coming in the bottom. Will be even more packed when I run 3x 3/0 from two Polaris and neutral lug into bottom hole. It was so much cleaner before, just 1' of wire straight in the top.

Fortunately unscrewing 60+ year old pipe an capping off in the basement went smoothly. Will plumb through basement and pop out to right of box, where it was before.

 

[HarryN]

Since meter on top of breaker box was too high, repositioned to the left.
Riser for overhead service will go where nipple with blue tape is (rainproofing for now.)
Secured every 3' means one clamp through middle of (decorative) shutter louvers.

Rather packed with those wires coming in the bottom. Will be even more packed when I run 3x 3/0 from two Polaris and neutral lug into bottom hole. It was so much cleaner before, just 1' of wire straight in the top.

Fortunately unscrewing 60+ year old pipe an capping off in the basement went smoothly. Will plumb through basement and pop out to right of box, where it was before.

View attachment 190577

I am in the same county, so watching your project.


Similar to you, I wanted 3 phase at the house, but years ago, PGE told me that it was not even possible.

I have a 100 amps / split phase panel plus a 60 amp separate feed for the air conditioner.

Not really interested in the EV side, but there are times when I would like more power in the garage and it would over fill the existing breaker panel. Not necessarily the total draw at any one time, but not enough breakers and would go over the 100 amp rating if all were on.

 

[Hedges]

100A main, up to 80A continuous.

If you wanted PV, 120% rule: Is that a 125A panel with 100A main, or a 100A panel? (or did you mean "PV" when you typed "EV"?)
What kind of box is the 60A feed? Might be allowed 60A x 80% = 48A backfeed.

For your garage, maybe put a 100A breaker in the 100A panel and feed a sub-panel.
Maybe priority switching to avoid too many loads at once.

VFD cost less than just a 3-phase breaker panel. At least smaller ones can run off split-phase.

 

[HarryN]

100A main, up to 80A continuous.

If you wanted PV, 120% rule: Is that a 125A panel with 100A main, or a 100A panel? (or did you mean "PV" when you typed "EV"?)
What kind of box is the 60A feed? Might be allowed 60A x 80% = 48A backfeed.

For your garage, maybe put a 100A breaker in the 100A panel and feed a sub-panel.
Maybe priority switching to avoid too many loads at once.

VFD cost less than just a 3-phase breaker panel. At least smaller ones can run off split-phase.

Thanks - I should probably start my own thread with details about the setup at my house so I don't take your thread off topic.

When I get that far, I will invite you of course to learn from your experiences, as well as continue to read your thread here and other info that you post on the forum. Thank you.

 

[Hedges]

Reinspection was performed today, and I got meter release for PG&E to proceed.

I thought it would be the same inspector, but was a new one, so I was a bit concerned he would find other things wrong.

He snapped a photo and shared it with someone, had a discussion. I had secured the riser every 3', and that meant through the shutter, now that meter is left of breaker box. What he requested was that I stand off the meter box slightly, as the top support is, so shutter could be removed for repair.



This meter box from Siemens would have been cleaner, might not have fit a couple things I wanted (two 2" conduit out the back, positioned so I didn't have to remove bush for clearance.)




The other thing he told me to do was use Acorn style ground rod clamps rather than the two screw style which works for pipes.




But he gave clearance for the meter, so I took care of those two modifications today and will schedule with PG&E.

Once PG&E has move the wires to this new riser, I'll do a quick require so old 100A panel is backfed from new 100A panel rather than the other way around. Then at my leisure I will move balance of circuits over to new 100A panel (presently just oven). With nothing left on old panel I can rip it out and replace with 200A, and get (hopefully final) inspection.

Next project will be the 15kW PV system which connects to the switch I just installed.

 

[Hedges]

PG&E showed up this morning (first thing, before 8:00 AM) for "cut and swing" of wires from old riser to new.
After conferring with the company, said my rimless meter socket wasn't allowed. The kind where lid holds meter in place. They require rim type, where meter goes in from outside and a ring retains it.



I used:

Square D 200 Amp Ringless-Horn Bypass Overhead or Underground Meter Socket with Tri-Plex Grounding UHTRS212B - The Home Depot

The Square D 200 Amp Residential Ringless Meter Socket with horn bypass surface mounts to provide for a single electric meter. It accommodates multiple wiring configurations for A size hub provision in

www.homedepot.com

PG&E wants:

Square D 200 Amp Ring-Type Overhead or Underground Meter Socket URTRS213B - The Home Depot

The Square D 200 Amp Residential Ring-type Meter Socket with no bypass surface mounts to provide for a single electric meter. It accommodates multiple wiring configurations for A size hub provision in

www.homedepot.com

The PG&E form I completed requesting upgrade (to 200A service) didn't even have a space to list model number, so I attached data sheet. Apparently they didn't review that.

I hoped both had same size enclosure, could just swap lid, but the correct one is 1" taller.
I'll have to remove old one and put wires into new. Also, barely was able to shoehorn old one in under shutter. Will have to stand off another 0.5" or so to clear or cut an inch off bottom edge of shutter (easier said than done, in place with adjacent box so Skillsaw won't cut the whole way. So start with it, finish with hand saw?)

 

[400bird]

That's a bummer.
For cutting the shutter, one of those buzzy multi-tools may be the solution. Before I tried one, I thought it was going to be gimmicky garbage. Now, that I've used one, they're pretty useful.

 

[goldserve]

Oh yeah, you have to dig through a lot of documentation so see what specific meter socket is approved for which power company. Did you buy the ringless one at the local home depot?

 

[Hedges]

For Solar application, pull-down menu listed huge variety of acceptable switches (and inverters.)
That is a modern application. Meter upgrades are an ancient thing, nothing on the application related to this requirement, and everyone in the trade other than me already knew what was acceptable.

Mail order from Home Depot, I think, neither of those I linked above is stocked.
Just ordered the ring type through eBay. Ten bucks more but convenient and likely earlier delivery.

I went back and reviewed the Siemens Meter + Main Breaker combo, but size does interfere with some of my plans.

I am contemplating running 2" riser on surface of wall and relocating shutter in front of it.
I liked it better with meter above breaker box, but that put it at 7'2" instead of 6'. Suppose I ought to ask PG&E if that is OK in these days of electronic reading. But it is probably about service/disconnect.

Or if I placed retaining wall blocks 15" high, filled with dirt, making a 30" wide by 36" deep platform. Have to trim bush that much higher too.

 

[zanydroid]

That's a bummer.
For cutting the shutter, one of those buzzy multi-tools may be the solution. Before I tried one, I thought it was going to be gimmicky garbage. Now, that I've used one, they're pretty useful.

View attachment 197908

These feel silly but i think this is one of those cases where Darwinism wins… they wouldnt be in so many hands if they were useless.