zanydroid
Solar Wizard
I believe span works with standard breakers but has relays and CTs behind the busbar. Haven't seen one in person to confirm.
Cost for utility transformer installation?
- Thread starter Hedges
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3/0 copper or 4/0 Aluminum.
Sounds like your setup is similar to what I am wanting to do, although I want to have a dedicated inverter and bypass breaker in my main panel if the utility will let me. If they won't, I might need to see if I can get a split-bus 200A panel with a 200A inverter input breaker and double lugs on one side and the interlocked input and bypass breakers along with branch devices on the other side.
zanydroid
Solar Wizard
FWIW a lot of panelboards support plug-on lugs which are rated to the max rating of the busbar. No switch, but you don't really need this if you're effectively extending the busbar.
Hedges
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What is it you want to connect but might not be allowed?
If drop is good for 200A, obviously can't connect 2x 200A breakers in parallel and load them. Would require 400A service.
But after one 200A breaker you can fan out to anything.
There are some main panels with large main breaker and smaller breaker line-side tap. Possibly only for PV generation, not loads, so not drawing more current.
Ampster
Renewable Energy Hobbyist
Yes, my first rooftop DIY solar was installed in 2011 with just angle bracket lagged to the comp shingles with some caulk. That roof began leaking last year and I was never sure if it was those lag bolts or the 38 years on a 20 - 30 year comp shingle roof.
I don't know the inner workings but I assume they must use breakers. Others like Leviton are less expensive but I am not sure they have load control. As far as I know those less expensive panels only have reporting. I have that with my Emporia for less than $200.
zanydroid
Solar Wizard
Span uses random assortment of breakers, the magic is elsewhere in the panel. I should probably google for someone who's cut one up for science.
Leviton has load control in the latest generation. Not the first generation of breakers.
zanydroid
Solar Wizard
I don't think your OCPD is intended to protect the service conductors. Usually it does do that/correlate to the service size, but I don't believe this is actually required by NEC. It may be required by specific POCOs.
The OCPD does protect your wiring and busbars though, and this is definitely covered by NEC and the installation instructions on the panels
Hedges
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We could obviously overload wires on the pole, or utility transformer, if everyone pulled their max 100A or 200A.
The utility drop is 3 wires twisted around a cable, or 3 wires in underground conduit. I prefer not to overload that, and main breaker sized to it makes sense.
What did you mean by "dedicated inverter and bypass breaker in my main panel" that utility might not allow?
The utility drop is 3 wires twisted around a cable, or 3 wires in underground conduit. I prefer not to overload that, and main breaker sized to it makes sense.
What did you mean by "dedicated inverter and bypass breaker in my main panel" that utility might not allow?
zanydroid
Solar Wizard
Well there's certainly a difference between what you're allowed to do and what's smarter. For instance I refused to hire an electrician that wanted to add an EVSE directly onto my hotbus panel, that is lugged directly into the meter without OCPD. 100A wire up to the transformer for me.
I believe 2x200A on a 400A bus, with the 200A serving as the disconnects, would be fine on 200A service provided load calculations are done to an appropriate level of diligence... but you could also use a 200A or 225A bus with 200A main and lug-feed two 200A panels off it and achieve a similar result for safer (less diligence needed on load calcs) and possibly cheaper.
It is just the bypass for the hybrid inverter; I want to be able to disconnect line and load easily without impact when/if there is a problem. The panel has no main breaker, just the 6-Disconnect rule. There is an exception for this in the NEC (somewhere), but the utility doesn't exactly care about that.
I could just add a house panel (and there would be some benefits to doing so), but wall space is a bit tight.
Hedges
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I figure a 200A main breaker at meter could feed inverter (e.g. SolArk) and also go to 125A interlocked generator breaker of a 200A sub panel. SolArk would feed 200A main breaker of the sub panel.
If you want to unmount SolArk, you turn off 200A breaker at meter while you disconnect wires from Polaris.
If your sub panel was Homeline, looks like the 200A branch breaker could be used with generator interlock. For QO, 125A is what fits, but an unapproved extension to interlock should work with 200A branch circuit breaker.
I'm using a visible blade knife switch after 200A main breaker, so that lets me isolate inverter for removal.
If you want to unmount SolArk, you turn off 200A breaker at meter while you disconnect wires from Polaris.
If your sub panel was Homeline, looks like the 200A branch breaker could be used with generator interlock. For QO, 125A is what fits, but an unapproved extension to interlock should work with 200A branch circuit breaker.
I'm using a visible blade knife switch after 200A main breaker, so that lets me isolate inverter for removal.
Hedges
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PG&E:
"It looks like you won’t be adding any added load to the panel at this time. When you do, please remember to send in a new application showing the added load. I will review the photos and information provided to make sure PG&E Greenbook clearances and requirements are met. Once I have processed your application, I will send you a confirmation email with the next step(s)."
Once I have the service upgrade and GT PV, then I can add heating loads. Which I will operate only to the extent they are cheaper than gas. Once I've paid the sunk cost of PV system, using all the credits will be zero incremental cost. But better to come up short of using all, rather than paying for electric heating at 10x the cost of gas.
In a different county, Silicon Valley Clean Energy offers incentives for homeowners and contractors to put in electric heating appliances.
svcleanenergy.org
svcleanenergy.org
"All-Electric bonus for removal of the gas meter $500"
Uh, no thanks!
One year I blew through my electric surplus and bought electricity for the last month's heating, bill of $700 electric vs. typical $70 for gas heat.
"It looks like you won’t be adding any added load to the panel at this time. When you do, please remember to send in a new application showing the added load. I will review the photos and information provided to make sure PG&E Greenbook clearances and requirements are met. Once I have processed your application, I will send you a confirmation email with the next step(s)."
Once I have the service upgrade and GT PV, then I can add heating loads. Which I will operate only to the extent they are cheaper than gas. Once I've paid the sunk cost of PV system, using all the credits will be zero incremental cost. But better to come up short of using all, rather than paying for electric heating at 10x the cost of gas.
In a different county, Silicon Valley Clean Energy offers incentives for homeowners and contractors to put in electric heating appliances.
FutureFit Fundamentals Contractor Training
svcleanenergy.org
SVCE- FutureFit Homes Program
Get up to $8,000 in rebates for upgrading to new electric home appliances. Plus, additional rebates of $5,000 for income-qualified CARE and FERA customers.
svcleanenergy.org
"All-Electric bonus for removal of the gas meter $500"
Uh, no thanks!
One year I blew through my electric surplus and bought electricity for the last month's heating, bill of $700 electric vs. typical $70 for gas heat.
zanydroid
Solar Wizard
With the lack of a meaningful minimum monthly gas fee from PG&E, IMO gas meter removal is for sort of activist reasons. My headcanon is that it hoses your home resale value to some extent. I guess it also theoretically leaks less gas inside your house to have it capped off.
does any of these rebates available for DIY install ? some one told me recently too that permit is required now for water heater replacement/installationIn a different county, Silicon Valley Clean Energy offers incentives for homeowners and contractors to put in electric heating appliances.
SVCE- FutureFit Homes Program
Get up to $8,000 in rebates for upgrading to new electric home appliances. Plus, additional rebates of $5,000 for income-qualified CARE and FERA customers.
here's one active heating cost comparison calculator, enter your specific costs for $/therm & $/kwh and appliance efficiency %. Use "electric geothermal" with 300-400% efficiency for mini-split/heatpump heating
Fuel Comparison Calculator for Home Heating | Coalpail.com
Compare the costs of different home heating fuels like coal, wood, natural gas and oil. Values are adjusted for efficiency, BTU content and other variables.
coalpail.com
Hedges
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The SVCE rebates might be available for DIY. I'd think so. I looked through info to see if submitting signed off permit was required by them or PG&E, couldn't find that explicitly.
"I will comply with all permitting and inspection rules and regulations for the installation set by the local Authority Having Jurisdiction."
I think DIY with any required permits should work.
The city does require permit for many things including water heater replacement. Some other equipment and electrical outlets/switches do not. Roof replacement does, but not if up to 25% of the roof in one year. They gave one forum member a hard time about rooftop PV permit because they had no record of a roofing permit in many decades.
Are there federal tax credits? Those you just keep your records in case of audit, don't need to submit.
SVCE specifically said must replace gas appliance with electric and remove old one, can't have both. I might add HPWH but want to have a hybrid system with gas. (I think gas plus heat pump ought to be offered as a product. It would let grid be operated closer to capacity for greater carbon-free power earlier on.)
The rebates do add up to $$$ but I don't want to let them in my shorts.
"To be eligible for the add-ons, you must install either the heat pump water heater or a heat pump HVAC system. Prewiring for future electric appliance upgrades, such as an electric vehicle charger, allows a customer to efficiently address the home’s complete electric system upgrade at one time. You can’t get a water heater prewiring rebate and a heat pump water heater rebate."
They offer $2000 to replace gas water heater with HPWH, $1000 for service upgrade, $2000 for 4 additional electric circuits besides the one for HPWH. $5000 ain't chump change. Approximately covers materials, expect contractor labor to be much more. I'm waiting to see how much PG&E sticks me for to clip and re-crimp overhead wires.
"I will comply with all permitting and inspection rules and regulations for the installation set by the local Authority Having Jurisdiction."
I think DIY with any required permits should work.
The city does require permit for many things including water heater replacement. Some other equipment and electrical outlets/switches do not. Roof replacement does, but not if up to 25% of the roof in one year. They gave one forum member a hard time about rooftop PV permit because they had no record of a roofing permit in many decades.
Are there federal tax credits? Those you just keep your records in case of audit, don't need to submit.
SVCE specifically said must replace gas appliance with electric and remove old one, can't have both. I might add HPWH but want to have a hybrid system with gas. (I think gas plus heat pump ought to be offered as a product. It would let grid be operated closer to capacity for greater carbon-free power earlier on.)
The rebates do add up to $$$ but I don't want to let them in my shorts.
"To be eligible for the add-ons, you must install either the heat pump water heater or a heat pump HVAC system. Prewiring for future electric appliance upgrades, such as an electric vehicle charger, allows a customer to efficiently address the home’s complete electric system upgrade at one time. You can’t get a water heater prewiring rebate and a heat pump water heater rebate."
They offer $2000 to replace gas water heater with HPWH, $1000 for service upgrade, $2000 for 4 additional electric circuits besides the one for HPWH. $5000 ain't chump change. Approximately covers materials, expect contractor labor to be much more. I'm waiting to see how much PG&E sticks me for to clip and re-crimp overhead wires.
zanydroid
Solar Wizard
I don't know about SVCE, but in PCE territory my general mental model is that 80% of the credit value for these projects does not require a contractor. BayRen does have a contractor requirement.
What's the deal with concern about getting a permit? Water heater replacement is likely perfunctory level of plans needed (maybe a load calc too). A lot of energy efficient projects tend to have discounted permitting to. Here in the peninsula I paid $10 for my solar permit from city (fire marshal wanted more though).
For $2000 that's a lot of $ for that one hour of work. If it's worry about workmanship fail, then you should not DIY...
What's the deal with concern about getting a permit? Water heater replacement is likely perfunctory level of plans needed (maybe a load calc too). A lot of energy efficient projects tend to have discounted permitting to. Here in the peninsula I paid $10 for my solar permit from city (fire marshal wanted more though).
For $2000 that's a lot of $ for that one hour of work. If it's worry about workmanship fail, then you should not DIY...
I’m looking at peninsula clean energy rebates of 2000 for hpwh and $1000 towards main panel upgrades due to hpwh install. I emailed them previously and they accept diy as long as you itemize everything that you need for the install. Include pictures of permits for your local jurisdiction and pictures of gas water heater before install and hpwh after install.
There are some other stackable rebates if you get a bayren contractor but it’s not even worth approaching them.
For my local jurisdiction, you need a separate electrical permit to put a junction box and another one for the water heater install. I’m thinking of skipping the electrical one and just claim an outlet was there already and do the water heater one.
Anyone can recommend me a brand of hpwh? I’m using a rheem gas heater and it has been nothing but trouble. Aosmith looks good but which one will give me less trouble in the long run and quieter?
There are some other stackable rebates if you get a bayren contractor but it’s not even worth approaching them.
For my local jurisdiction, you need a separate electrical permit to put a junction box and another one for the water heater install. I’m thinking of skipping the electrical one and just claim an outlet was there already and do the water heater one.
Anyone can recommend me a brand of hpwh? I’m using a rheem gas heater and it has been nothing but trouble. Aosmith looks good but which one will give me less trouble in the long run and quieter?
Hedges
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Do you have a rebate available, $500 per outlet (not including HPWH) up to $2000?
Could be something to consider if you want EV and other outlets. Permit for multiple boxes probably has quantity discount.
Our documents say rebate reservation date must be prior to start of upgrade.
Could be something to consider if you want EV and other outlets. Permit for multiple boxes probably has quantity discount.
Our documents say rebate reservation date must be prior to start of upgrade.
zanydroid
Solar Wizard
Yeah you're going to be net negative $ with BayRen if you were otherwise going to DIY.
I don't know about long-term reliability (and I'm not sure how you would get that kind of assurance... maybe track record of parts).
Voltex HPTS is on my wishlist, it has the lowest published noise dB when I was looking at it a few months ago. And it has a noticeable jump in efficiency on paper vs the previous Voltex. One issue though is that the 50 and 66 gallon models are on backorder again.
There was a new one that came out last month but I can't remember who made it. Need to search history on r/heatpumps
I don't know about long-term reliability (and I'm not sure how you would get that kind of assurance... maybe track record of parts).
Voltex HPTS is on my wishlist, it has the lowest published noise dB when I was looking at it a few months ago. And it has a noticeable jump in efficiency on paper vs the previous Voltex. One issue though is that the 50 and 66 gallon models are on backorder again.
There was a new one that came out last month but I can't remember who made it. Need to search history on r/heatpumps
Anyone in the Bay Area knows a good place to buy the ao smith vortex pro hpts? Between the federal credits and peninsula clean energy rebates and DIY, it’s not going to cost me much. I would rather get the best and not the home depot or Lowe’s lineup.
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