Half price electric cars

[Sparks-n-Splinters]

I think I'll keep my v8 pickup. Although having a 1/2 price fiskers would give a pile of fun parts to play with...... and a battery pack for a solar array.
I'm wondering about turning its motor into a hydro power plant I wanna build on our stream

I think I'll wait till the clearance price hits 75% off!

 

[Brucey]

Um, Yee -- ess -- ish. Not gonna be able to sell that here or in Europe. Once you get all the safety items in play, ... 30KWH is ~120 miles. So you have a circa 2010 Nissan Leaf for $25K

Yes, I was responding to someone suggesting a battery might cost $60,000. Just to show that it's not reasonable when you can get an entire small car for $10k (US/EU regulatory approval notwithstanding). It's interesting to see BYD and Tesla and other Chinese manufacturers duking it out.

 

[Checkthisout]

I see that in a lot of genres of topics
You can work with something for decades, but that dude that watched the youtube video knows more

It's just a car that runs on batteries instead of fuel.

Most people like you wouldn't know the difference between A and B unless told it is A or B
That goes for all appliances, tools, computer software, computers, operating systems, handhelds, solar equipment, etc

Yes but it comes with a downside.

It's like...I mean imagine if I had a horse and I changed from feeding it oats to alfalfa.

Alfalfa is 1/3rd the price of of oats but a horse that can run on alfalfa costs 30% more.

Ok?

I do find it funny how we all (me too) will purchase something like an EV or a solar system so we can get that tax credit. Nothing like buying crap to get paid back with your own money that the govt originally took from you to begin with. Like a vicious circle.

This is why I didn't get a Tesla. Our state tax break stops at $45,000.00. The car you buy has to be cheaper than 45k or you get nothing.


I wanted the 4wd model 3 but the only one that fit in the tax credit was lowest level Model3.

 

[Haze]

Musk is having financial pain, Tesla is generally fine, though its profit margins must obviously fall with the prices.

Tesla is not fine, they live off gov handouts. All it’s going to take for them to go belly up is a president rolling back the green credits scam.

 

[Ampster]

Tesla is not fine, they live off gov handouts.

Have you looked at theire balance sheet or their income statement? What government handouts are you talking about? The car buyers get the tax credit when they buy the car. Some manufacturers do pay Tesla for tax credits but those are not handouts from the government. You did not mention that the stock is overpriced, which is the only thing I agree with.

 

[G00SE]

Sorry I’m late

interesting discussion. It’s been a bit quiet in here lately
I want 10”+ of ground clearance, awd, 4 doors, no over the air connectivity, heat pump, led lights, heated seats, and 200 mile range for <20k and I’m sold.
ID4 is getting close (concessions required on above list) and the ship has sailed on OTA. Although I’m still intrigued by a lifted e-golf or leaf as a beater

Wish I could completely transform my vehicle fleet to be honest. Maybe one day, unfortunately I don’t particularly enjoy selling things so they just accumulate which prohibits the funding to replace them . None of my vehicles are newer than 2006, they are all just fine. I often strive for better fuel economy as I drive 500+ miles a week.
I need a pickup that can tow 12k monthly, a daily that can traverse 5 miles of daily forest roads, and fit 4. Solution will always seemingly be 2 separate vehicles, why not make one independent of fuel stations?

I want an EV, EVs don’t yet want me

Edit: on the biodiesel comment from McDonald’s a few pages back…I wish it was still that easy. B15 is awesome, but running WVO or >B20 through a CP4 (or most common rails) diesel is like purposely bashing your shin on your trailer hitch when walking by everyday, the aftermath will hurt

 

[SoggyShoes]

Jet turbines are not very efficient. Aircraft use them because of high power/weight ratios and because they work at higher airspeed than propellers.

Gas turbine power plants are ~35% efficient vs. >50% for large piston generators. "Microturbines" which could almost kinda fit in a car are even worse, around 25% vs. 40%+ for diesels (e.g. VW TDI) or Atkinson cycle gasoline engines (e.g. Toyota Prius).

Gas turbine exhaust is very hot -- lots of wasted energy. Combined cycle gas turbine (CCGT) powerplants use this exhaust heat to make steam, which drives a secondary steam turbine. That can push efficiency up toward 60%, but adds a lot more moving parts, complexity and expense. It's way too bulky and exotic for a car. There are some attempts in the lab to use a small secondary steam cycle on diesel semi truck engines to boost efficiency toward 55%. Don't hold your breath on that, though.

Gas turbines may not be efficient, but they sure sound cool!
Listen to a helecopter ramping up the engine, or even cooler, the M1 Abrams tank! I love that sound!
I have dreamed of having a Batmobile with a gas turbine engine for 50 years. (I know the Batmobile had a rocket engine, but that's just ridiculous!)

 

[ksmithaz1]

yea the chinese mopeds are illegal in the states on streets and they're only a few hundred dollars, for over a decade.. really hope to see the cars get here sometime.

If they did you would then complain when the batteries were exploding, and no air bags, no crumple zones, no safety glass, no .... There is no free lunch here. You can get a new Leaf with a 40KWH pack for under $30K, and it's backed by Nissan, a very large company with a reasonable reputation, and manufacturing know how and scale. You might reduce the floor a bit but it's mostly around the cost of the batteries. A 2024 Nissan Sentra MSRP is around $24K. You can take 10% off that call it $22K. There is no sub $10K new vehicle of any kind in the US. None. Nothing. If China is selling cars under $20K they have to be getting subisidies, cutting corners, or both. The gravy train must end at some point, Daihatsu and Yugo come to mind. It is simply not sustainable.

Further, even the US companies don't sell many base model vehicles, because there is no money in them for the dealers or the company. Fleet purchases, things like that totally stripped down where the bulk makes up the difference. There is a company in Lady Lake that sells souped up golf carts for over $10K. When I read this stuff it's so bogus, no company anywhere can sustain selling a vehicle for those prices on their own. If they are being subsidized by their government maybe, but only for as long as the subsidies last. You cannot put $6000 worth of batteries in a vehicle and build the rest of the stuff around it for another $4000 and make any money. You will rapidly go broke.

 

[ksmithaz1]

Most people like you wouldn't know the difference between A and B unless told it is A or B
That goes for all appliances, tools, computer software, computers, operating systems, handhelds, solar equipment, etc

This is a very coarse response. If I lived in a rural area, that was cold (like NY) that had lots of snow and/or even rain, and/or I took a lot of longer trips then I could say "I dont have to get kicked in the crotch to know it's not for me". I'm sure Tulex is quite aware of the tech and limitations, I would not presume to know what "people like you" may or may not understand. You might want to climb down from the high and mighty perch you are sitting on.

I OTOH live in Arizona where it's normally warm and dry, and I have lot's of solar and a 45 mile daily commute back and forth. It makes really good sense for me, and Arizona has a tendency to be a little harder on ICE vehicles than other places. I can say my EV has never over-heated climbing a mountain in 110+ in the summer with the A/C on full blast.

 

[Haze]

Have you looked at theire balance sheet or their income statement? What government handouts are you talking about? The car buyers get the tax credit when they buy the car. Some manufacturers do pay Tesla for tax credits but those are not handouts from the government. You did not mention that the stock is overpriced, which is the only thing I agree with.

The company has literally lived off the Gov tit since inception and still needs those Gov forced green credits to stay afloat. While Musk was tweeting that people shouldn’t get Gov handouts in 2020, Tesla was there at the Gov tit to get its handout. Any basic Google search will bring up one after another Gov handout to every company other than PayPal that Elon has been involved with.

https://www.sierraclub.org/sites/www.sierraclub.org/files/sce-authors/u23721/CHP-TX-1900_Tesla%20.pdf

 

[clayswen]

I wonder if you pulled back the curtain, how much all these green climate agenda companies are getting from the govt? Even solar companies must get massive govt funding to get started just like the EV makers. Hell the govt pork bills have millions of dollars for some ridiculous crap so nothing surprises me.

 

[fatjay]

And, solar is apples and oranges. Far as I know, people are opting for solar as a choice. Those that see the benefit go for it, others have no interest. No mandates to turn off my grid by 2030 and have solar only.

I do think the opposite will happen, a ban on solar once people have a significant lack of need for power companies. Or there will be a ban on systems they can't control.

 

[G00SE]

@clayswen Seems the wind industry is one of the worst. Although it’s not just green energy, agriculture and oil are both highly subsidized as well.

 

[robby]

Have you looked at theire balance sheet or their income statement? What government handouts are you talking about? The car buyers get the tax credit when they buy the car. Some manufacturers do pay Tesla for tax credits but those are not handouts from the government. You did not mention that the stock is overpriced, which is the only thing I agree with.

The topic was Musk's companies.
I think he is also talking about the money NASA gives him, which was over 2.3 billion for the development of Starship alone! It's kind of insane since Musk has made it clear that his immediate need for Starship is to get Starlink satellites into space.
He made a statement about six months ago saying that every Falcon 9 Launch of Starlink Satellites is a financial loss for the company. They need Starship to be able to launch enough satellites in one shot to make the launch profitable.

It's also interesting that Musk use to say that a Falcon 9 launch would probably cost around 6 million dollars but in reality it cost about $60 Million. No problem because he charges NASA $55 Million per passenger!
So the Tax payer pays to develop the Falcon 9 rocket and then gets reamed on the ticket price for every seat on it.

 

[clayswen]

@clayswen Seems the wind industry is one of the worst. Although it’s not just green energy, agriculture and oil are both highly subsidized as well.

Yes wind turbines are all over the state of Texas. Land owners get paid big bucks to have them on their land too. My grandad died years ago, but I remember him saying when giant wind turbines first got started. "The company that's figuring out how to take these down and scrap them 20 years from now is gonna be the one making all the money." Definately could be an eye sore in 20 years when they are rusted out and inoperable.

 

[Brucey]

I think you are overestimating the cost of the battery to BYD.

Eve lf280k is apparently available for $78 per cell from China. Now with that as the high mark then for 30kWh that's say 34 cells, $2652.

Now we know BYD produces their own blade cells for less. Potentially $50-60 per cell, or $1700-$2000 for a 30kWh battery. BYD apparently makes about 75% of their components in-house, massive vertical integration. This article suggests 30% of vehicle costs is the battery.

How China's BYD went from bargain battery maker to Tesla's biggest rival

In-house cost cutting, tech innovation and state industrial policy drove recent export surge

asia.nikkei.com

 

[gotbeans]

Which goes better, the MG or the Fiskars?

View attachment 205422

That's a splitting axe and it's far superior to anything the car brand makes

It's like...I mean imagine if I had a horse and I changed from feeding it oats to alfalfa.

It'd die from too much protein

If they did you would then complain when the batteries were exploding, and no air bags, no crumple zones, no safety glass, no .... There is no free lunch here. You can get a new Leaf with a 40KWH pack for under $30K, and it's backed by Nissan, a very large company with a reasonable reputation, and manufacturing know how and scale. You might reduce the floor a bit but it's mostly around the cost of the batteries. A 2024 Nissan Sentra MSRP is around $24K. You can take 10% off that call it $22K. There is no sub $10K new vehicle of any kind in the US. None. Nothing. If China is selling cars under $20K they have to be getting subisidies, cutting corners, or both. The gravy train must end at some point, Daihatsu and Yugo come to mind. It is simply not sustainable.

Further, even the US companies don't sell many base model vehicles, because there is no money in them for the dealers or the company. Fleet purchases, things like that totally stripped down where the bulk makes up the difference. There is a company in Lady Lake that sells souped up golf carts for over $10K. When I read this stuff it's so bogus, no company anywhere can sustain selling a vehicle for those prices on their own. If they are being subsidized by their government maybe, but only for as long as the subsidies last. You cannot put $6000 worth of batteries in a vehicle and build the rest of the stuff around it for another $4000 and make any money. You will rapidly go broke.

naw I make my own stuff with their exploding batteries, they're fine.
I can get the batteries, and the electronics. I want the moped.

mopeds / scooters aren't supposed to have crumple zones.. and air bags...

 

[ksmithaz1]

People didn't leave twitter for truth social because of Elon, they left twitter for truth social because it became an option.

People left Twitter for Truth Social BEFORE Musk bought it, in large part because they were being de-platformed. When your options to express your OPINION or worse actual FACTS become limited, you squeeze folks out into other spaces. Things started to fall-over, all-over when "they" tried to deplatorm Rogan on Spotify I think it was. Now we have TS and Rumble etc... I had stopped looking at twitter, I occasionally look around now. It's really easy to defend "Free Speech" you like. Much harder if you don't. "Are they doing anything illegal?" - Musk, "No but it's wrong/mean/etc (p)..." - Lemon. Be very damn careful about what you ask for you might get it and not like the results. If I make a system that can shut you up because I don't like what you say, that same system can be used to shut me up as well at some point.

Same BS happens here with the EV arguments. They are not for everyone, and any technology that is superior will eventually either win out or be displaced by another superior one. Beta vs VHS, Sony gets a bit prudish, VHS wins but it's a short lived victory until the DVD comes out. Astonishingly none of it happened with the involvement of government. I might mention the Ford Model T had a 10gal fuel tank and a top speed of ~40MPH. I doubt it would go 200 miles on a tank of fuel. I know "driving range" became a thing from the 50's on ususally by putting very large fuel tanks in the vehicles, and pushing economy over 10MPG. Today? 600 Miles in my old 2016 Sonata PHEV.

The original Nissan Leaf, and the even earlier EV's were pretty abysmal, no range, no ride, awful. Over time Tesla has shown that a reasonable range vehicle can be mass-produced and sold at a profit. Love it or hate it the technology is viable at this point, and tons of research dollars are going into battery tech. This is so infantile at this point it's hard to say, but like die reductions in semi-conductors fossil fuel production is at some point going to hit limits we can't figure a cheap way around.

Solar / battery / ev tech really dovetails to ease the transition to alternate energy resources. I doubt there will ever be a 100% transition, but until/unless someone figures out something better it's fairly simple to generate electricity from a wide variety of means. We've been taking advantage of this for the last 100 years by creating numerous diverse electrical appliances and devices. It's a lot simpler to make a nuclear plant that makes electricity you put in a battery to drive a car, than make a nuclear powered car. We did have wood/steam powered cars at one time, and coal / wood fired boilers in ships, and all of it moved to petroleum based distillates, because it was easier to focus talent to support, engineer, and build smaller and better engines that used common fuel. This will happen in the transportation industry, as it has already happened in the appliance industry. Should we ban gas stoves? Hell no! Are the majority of stoves sold today electric? Yes! Cleaner simpler common configuration and installation with wire instead of piping a volatile gas into your house. You live in the Tundra somewhere? I'd stick with gas/oil heat for now, but some of the compressors these days suck heat out of ice, so I dunno 10 years from now. Does the government need to stick their nose in? No. People will figure out what works best for them and buy it. I also laugh when people talk about cold affecting EV's. This was also true of ICE vehicles up until the 1960's. In WW2 Russia diesel vehicles were dead in the water because the fuel turned to jelly. Anti-freeze and other coolant/fuel additives later . . . Fuel line heaters, ... , "Prestone" aka ethylene glycol, cracked blocks frozen water-pumps, ad nauseum. These were technical challenges that were gradually over time conquered, as will many of the EV defeciencies. So for now instead of not moving at all because of a cracked radiator, I can't go as far as I could if it was warm in my EV. Meh. Same shirts different cleaners.

 

[gotbeans]

People left Twitter for Truth Social BEFORE Musk bought it, in large part because they were being de-platformed. When your options to express your OPINION or worse actual FACTS become limited, you squeeze folks out into other spaces. Things started to fall-over, all-over when "they" tried to deplatorm Rogan on Spotify I think it was. Now we have TS and Rumble etc... I had stopped looking at twitter, I occasionally look around now. It's really easy to defend "Free Speech" you like. Much harder if you don't. "Are they doing anything illegal?" - Musk, "No but it's wrong/mean/etc (p)..." - Lemon. Be very damn careful about what you ask for you might get it and not like the results. If I make a system that can shut you up because I don't like what you say, that same system can be used to shut me up as well at some point.

Same BS happens here with the EV arguments. They are not for everyone, and any technology that is superior will eventually either win out or be displaced by another superior one. Beta vs VHS, Sony gets a bit prudish, VHS wins but it's a short lived victory until the DVD comes out. Astonishingly none of it happened with the involvement of government. I might mention the Ford Model T had a 10gal fuel tank and a top speed of ~40MPH. I doubt it would go 200 miles on a tank of fuel. I know "driving range" became a thing from the 50's on ususally by putting very large fuel tanks in the vehicles, and pushing economy over 10MPG. Today? 600 Miles in my old 2016 Sonata PHEV.

The original Nissan Leaf, and the even earlier EV's were pretty abysmal, no range, no ride, awful. Over time Tesla has shown that a reasonable range vehicle can be mass-produced and sold at a profit. Love it or hate it the technology is viable at this point, and tons of research dollars are going into battery tech. This is so infantile at this point it's hard to say, but like die reductions in semi-conductors fossil fuel production is at some point going to hit limits we can't figure a cheap way around.

Solar / battery / ev tech really dovetails to ease the transition to alternate energy resources. I doubt there will ever be a 100% transition, but until/unless someone figures out something better it's fairly simple to generate electricity from a wide variety of means. We've been taking advantage of this for the last 100 years by creating numerous diverse electrical appliances and devices. It's a lot simpler to make a nuclear plant that makes electricity you put in a battery to drive a car, than make a nuclear powered car. We did have wood/steam powered cars at one time, and coal / wood fired boilers in ships, and all of it moved to petroleum based distillates, because it was easier to focus talent to support, engineer, and build smaller and better engines that used common fuel. This will happen in the transportation industry, as it has already happened in the appliance industry. Should we ban gas stoves? Hell no! Are the majority of stoves sold today electric? Yes! Cleaner simpler common configuration and installation with wire instead of piping a volatile gas into your house. You live in the Tundra somewhere? I'd stick with gas/oil heat for now, but some of the compressors these days suck heat out of ice, so I dunno 10 years from now. Does the government need to stick their nose in? No. People will figure out what works best for them and buy it. I also laugh when people talk about cold affecting EV's. This was also true of ICE vehicles up until the 1960's. In WW2 Russia diesel vehicles were dead in the water because the fuel turned to jelly. Anti-freeze and other coolant/fuel additives later . . . Fuel line heaters, ... , "Prestone" aka ethylene glycol, cracked blocks frozen water-pumps, ad nauseum. These were technical challenges that were gradually over time conquered, as will many of the EV defeciencies. So for now instead of not moving at all because of a cracked radiator, I can't go as far as I could if it was warm in my EV. Meh. Same shirts different cleaners.

none of that would have happened without government involvement because Rockefeller would have bought every company in existence and there would only be 1 corporate and they'd just keep stuff going steady and available. It'd be worse than intel skylake architecture and apple stagnation for a decade
the "anti fire" "anti vehicle" "anti wheel" people of course get shoved out of the way, but massive stagnation happens all the time without a forceful push
getting rid of leaded fuel was great too

 

[Bob B]

When the ICE vehicle replaced horse drawn carriages, horse drawn carraiges weren't outlawed. When propeller driven ships replaced sailing ships, sailing ships weren't outlawed.

I would like to have an inexpensive EV to do short trips around town and devise my own ways to charge it .... but I want to make that decision for myself .... not be forced to do it by the nanny state.

I have a camper that sits in the bed of my truck that weighs around 5000 lbs fully loaded and ready to go. I can go around 400 miles before I need fuel and it is readily available everywhere I go .... It would be an excellent "bug out" vehicle.
I don't see an EV accomplishing that by the time they are determined to end ICE vehicle sales.

As others have said, transition to EVs needs to be an organic process .... may the best technology win .... in it's own due time.