Another Dead 120/240v Inverter Generator

[ChrisG]

I think regardless of the output voltage you want a durable long lasting fuel sipping gen but are looking at Chinese garbage.

What you are describing is at minimum not going to be an inverter based unit, probably should be low speed, and possibly liquid cooled.

A small diesel gen sub 10kw is going to last 10,000 hours of run time with minimal for repairs.

If you need to run a split phase well pump then get a split phase inverter use a cheap suitcase with a battery charger. But don't expect it to last forever and be bulletproof. These things are made for camping.

Since my post I bought a champion 5000w split phase inverter generator. Bought on Champions Amazon store for $267 ($700 off) Christmas sale. Not the greatest efficiency but it works.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

store for $267 ($700 off) Christmas sale

Awesome deal for you.
Wow. Under $300. That’s ridiculous!

I’m totally curious as well regarding “split phase’ on that 5000W. I had called champion re: connecting the L14 to the two busses of a split phase breaker panel and technician said it can’t be done, 120 or 240 only. Hmm.
Their wiring diagram on the 6250 shows that one of the two 120V 20A GFCI outlets is the same circuit as L1 while the other is L2. I’m curious about what makes the 5000W unit “split phase” differently than the 6250.

Thanks for posting that!

 

[time2roll]

Does the site have a battery and inverter? If so a little Honda to direct charge the battery works fine.

I can't imagine running a place on generator alone.

 

[ChrisG]

Awesome deal for you.
Wow. Under $300. That’s ridiculous!

I’m totally curious as well regarding “split phase’ on that 5000W. I had called champion re: connecting the L14 to the two busses of a split phase breaker panel and technician said it can’t be done, 120 or 240 only. Hmm.
Their wiring diagram on the 6250 shows that one of the two 120V 20A GFCI outlets is the same circuit as L1 while the other is L2. I’m curious about what makes the 5000W unit “split phase” differently than the 6250.

Thanks for posting that!

I actually have the 6250 (model 100519). Just 5000w running. Using a meter I get 120v from each L to neutral and 240v across L1/L2.

 

[ChrisG]

Does the site have a battery and inverter? If so a little Honda to direct charge the battery works fine.

I can't imagine running a place on generator alone.

Both charge batteries and run direct if inverter failure.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

I actually have the 6250 (model 100519). Just 5000w running. Using a meter I get 120v from each L to neutral and 240v across L1/L2.
View attachment 186362

Got it. Same as mine and the price is almost half what I paid. Insane.

I actually didn’t stick a meter on mine, I merely looked at the wiring schematic and couldn’t figure out what made it not split phase. And thanks again.

FWIW when I use mine for battery charging (which has been seldom- needed less than I expected for this time of year in Vermont) through the 1012’s 60A charger simultaneously with another 10A charger my best estimate for gasoline consumption is a bit over a quart per hour. So ~$1/hr at that loading. Have you run yours enough yet to get a sense of fuel consumption?

 

[Hedges]

I had called champion re: connecting the L14 to the two busses of a split phase breaker panel and technician said it can’t be done, 120 or 240 only. Hmm.
Their wiring diagram on the 6250 shows ... GFCI

Two 120V GFCI could not be tapped for 240V, would trip.
But if you bypassed GFCI (can add 120/240V GFCI downstream), that might work.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

Two 120V GFCI could not be tapped for 240V, would trip.
But if you bypassed GFCI (can add 120/240V GFCI downstream), that might work.

That’s basically how they show it.
And the GFCI’s are 20A


I’ll be curious to see if you see the little curiosity I saw in the drawing, too ?

 

[Hedges]

Only the two 120V outlets have GFCI.
The 4-wire 30A 120/240V socket has no GFCI, so just use it directly.

That’s basically how they show it.
And the GFCI’s are 30A

The 20A receptacles have drawing that looks like GFCI pushbuttons.

I’ll be curious to see if you see the little curiosity I saw in the drawing, too ?

What, the stepper motor?

 

[12VoltInstalls]

What, the stepper motor

The L14 has no breaker protection

The 20A receptacles have drawing that looks like GFCI pushbuttons

And the GFCI’s are 30A

I misspoke. Yes 20A GFCI outlets

 

[Hedges]

True but ...

What's the point of protection with circuit breaker if source is current limited?
A 30A inverter can't (reliably) trip a 30A breaker.

SMA says their 6kW inverter can only trip a 20A breaker (although with 50A output, I think it could slow-trip a 30A or even 40A breaker). I suspect that comes from European 220V model.
The US 120V model can deliver 180A for 30 milliseconds, which should be enough to fast trip a 30A breaker.

 

[Hedges]

That won't turn a 120v generator to 120/240v split phase.

• If you connect it to two outlets on different phases of the panel, you will have a total of 30 amps of capacity at 250v. If you connect it to two outlets on the same phase of the panel, you will have two 15 or 20 amp, 120v circuits on one cord.

Or so they say.

It has two 15A plugs. The breaker feeding the outlets might be 20A.
You can't get 30A at 250V from 2x 15A (or 20A) at 120V.

It resembles a suicide cord and can be used for that device's namesake purposes.
If you have a 240V load connected to the cord and turned on, when you plug one 15A plug into an outlet, the other 15A plug's exposed pins are hot.

I've thought about making such devices, and did so initially, but later spent my employer's money on some relays and built one with interlocks that I call "Not a suicide cord". Neither 15A plug's hot lead gets connected unto both are plugged in.

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

I have three (three) different generators. A 1600 watt inverter suitcase styled denyo, a march 1992 build date makita 5k with a subaru robin engine (non inverter). and a 10kw denyo welder generator (three phase). I have not had a single issue with any of them. The denyo 10k is 18 years old, the makita is going on 34+ and the denyo suitcase is 8 years old. buy garbage expect poor results.
its really that simple.
no different then the folks who buy hot garbage off of allibabba and complain to the interwebz when it does not last/work.

any genset under 3000 watts that costs you under 1000 USD is going to fall under the hot outa china category. I do not care who sells it. its aimed/ price point at the people who are not willing enough to do some real research

you are either serious about what you do, or you are playing around the edges of the pool.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

any genset under 3000 watts that costs you under 1000 USD is going to fall under the hot outa china category. I do not care who sells it. its aimed/ price point at the people who are not willing enough to do some real research

Did you mean over 3000W?

FWIW I’m not sure there’s an A/B infinitive appropriate for all products these days. With generators there are some US- or Euro- or Japanese-designed products that are produced in China, Taiwan, Thailand, Vietnam, wherever, that are relatively inexpensive due to production cost savings.

its aimed/ price point at the people who are not willing enough to do some real research

Some of us do real research before we purchase lower-priced products to determine if there is a brand offering good value at the price point being considered. Sometimes that results in buying a higher end product- there is no choice. Sometimes you discover things along the way that lets you make better decisions at any price.

Brands that invest in parts inventory and market-soil customer service can be low-priced but offer real consumer value and longevity. Early on, Harbor Freight had some excellent Central Machinery machinists tools- great value but no long-term commitment to parts or other support. Grizzly on the other hand has been like a 25-year run of excellent value. I bought a Champion inverter generator because I did the same thing I did when I bought my TiG: I found user forums and looked for common denominator complaints, and I called the company and asked questions.
Are there better brands than Champion? Yup. Sure. But longevity reports and the very decent professional people on the phone with a full command of American English sealed the deal. Finding that I could purchase a bare-bones inverter generator for so little money wasn’t expected. I’m pleased.
FYI Primeweld was what I purchased for a TiG. The welder forums sing it’s praises, I knew a pipe- and pressure-vessel certified welder that bought one over a Miller, Esab, or Lincoln, the two phone calls I made were extraordinary, and the <$800 price point at my time of purchase was extraordinary versus the welding supplier’s $2400 for a similar machine with less flexibility.

buy garbage expect poor results.…any genset under 3000 watts that costs you under 1000 USD is going to fall under the hot outa china category

I totally agree that one shouldn’t buy on price alone. But value these days often is not reflected in price alone. I’ve heard more farmers and builders complain about generac in recent years than even harbor freight generators. And there are a lot of harborfreight generators out there.

It’s 15*F this morning. While there’s ~55hrs on the champion - not much- it’s still impressive to me that it starts running about 1/2-way through the first pull of the cord. While I wish I’d paid $275 for mine, the ~$500 I paid was a smoking value to me at the time. Still is.

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

Did you mean over 3000W?

FWIW I’m not sure there’s an A/B infinitive appropriate for all products these days. With generators there are some US- or Euro- or Japanese-designed products that are produced in China, Taiwan, Thailand, Vietnam, wherever, that are relatively inexpensive due to production cost savings.

Some of us do real research before we purchase lower-priced products to determine if there is a brand offering good value at the price point being considered. Sometimes that results in buying a higher end product- there is no choice. Sometimes you discover things along the way that lets you make better decisions at any price.

Brands that invest in parts inventory and market-soil customer service can be low-priced but offer real consumer value and longevity. Early on, Harbor Freight had some excellent Central Machinery machinists tools- great value but no long-term commitment to parts or other support. Grizzly on the other hand has been like a 25-year run of excellent value. I bought a Champion inverter generator because I did the same thing I did when I bought my TiG: I found user forums and looked for common denominator complaints, and I called the company and asked questions.
Are there better brands than Champion? Yup. Sure. But longevity reports and the very decent professional people on the phone with a full command of American English sealed the deal. Finding that I could purchase a bare-bones inverter generator for so little money wasn’t expected. I’m pleased.
FYI Primeweld was what I purchased for a TiG. The welder forums sing it’s praises, I knew a pipe- and pressure-vessel certified welder that bought one over a Miller, Esab, or Lincoln, the two phone calls I made were extraordinary, and the <$800 price point at my time of purchase was extraordinary versus the welding supplier’s $2400 for a similar machine with less flexibility.

I totally agree that one shouldn’t buy on price alone. But value these days often is not reflected in price alone. I’ve heard more farmers and builders complain about generac in recent years than even harbor freight generators. And there are a lot of harborfreight generators out there.

It’s 15*F this morning. While there’s ~55hrs on the champion - not much- it’s still impressive to me that it starts running about 1/2-way through the first pull of the cord. While I wish I’d paid $275 for mine, the ~$500 I paid was a smoking value to me at the time. Still is.

you took the time to do some research.. 99% of the people posting do not... they buy a mr pow and then complain when it does not work according to their... their expectations.

 

[ChrisG]

Got it. Same as mine and the price is almost half what I paid. Insane.

I actually didn’t stick a meter on mine, I merely looked at the wiring schematic and couldn’t figure out what made it not split phase. And thanks again.

FWIW when I use mine for battery charging (which has been seldom- needed less than I expected for this time of year in Vermont) through the 1012’s 60A charger simultaneously with another 10A charger my best estimate for gasoline consumption is a bit over a quart per hour. So ~$1/hr at that loading. Have you run yours enough yet to get a sense of fuel consumption?

I have not. Still breaking it in on fuel. Have motor snorkel propane kit on order

 

[12VoltInstalls]

they buy a mr pow and then complain when it does not work according to their... their expectations.

Understandable.
I bought two 60A powMR SCCs myself. My expectations were low- I only expected them to work at the most basic level. One did, the other did not. Even cheap stuff should work at a basic level but that is not the case.

Was I disappointed? Not really. I was frustrated that the compromises of buying from the bottom shelf included not working at all LOL because at $80- if they work- I was tantalized by the idea of not spending a weeks pay to have multiple backups?

But for me they weren’t core to my system- I have a number of alternatives from higher shelves that work great, and I bought (the better ones) for dependable service and only ancillariously for entertainment value. I just didn’t expect one identical powMR unit to find mppt and the other to “hunt” constantly which resulted in <25% charging compared to the other regardless of the array.

But yes- knowing what you are buying is key to meeting expectations. Then your expectations are trustworthy to judge the results of a gamble (calculated risk?).

The generator, however, I selected for functional value - not entertainment.

 

[ChrisG]

Why I started this thread was for research. Used champion I had stopped working but unsure of previous conditions used for. Anyway was looking for a fuel sipping way to get 120/240v, even thought about the Honda path. Most people I see buying the biggest and baddest generator on the market without thinking of fuel consumption and fuel availability when the generator is needed which should be a primary metric in research for what we do as DIY’ers.

So yes, I’m happy I bought a brand new champion $1000 inverter generator for $267 during a Champion sale. Yes it does split phase. No it’s not the greatest efficiency but pretty damn good and if used properly to jam energy into batteries OR power a house directly intermittently, it’s perfectly fine.

 

[ChrisG]

@12VoltInstalls there is a G/N bond on the outlets including L14 120/240. I removed the front panel and disabled the bond to make it floating neutral. I have a G/N bond plug that I plug in if powering loads directly from genny that require it or NOT use the bonding plug if powering house directly via generator inlet plug into main panel where the bond always exists

 

[12VoltInstalls]

there is a G/N bond on the outlets including L14 120/240

I can see that circuit in the diagram. You made me look. The guy on the phone at champion said to unbond it to just remove the wire at the frame… but the diagram says differently as apparently you are aware.

Since ‘the shop’ will be supplied from a breaker panel (currently) fed from the ‘house’ 2kW inverter and the 1012LV-MK is NOT supplying the house- charging by solar and/or generator only- and the 1012 disconnects its N-G bond when the grid/gen-to-house homerun is energized …
So basically I need to think about that a bit more and come up with a no-mix wiring scheme. I already have six 10ga thhn in conduit (not yet in service) so I can keep the 1012 incoming circuit and the 2kW output circuits holy.
But thanks for pointing out the 6250 bond inside the rig- I “knew” that was on the diagram but hadn’t thought about it yet.

Edit
Probably just going to wire the shop breaker panel from the generator looking ahead to a 6048 or a couple 6548s, and just power a couple independent outlets and a light from the ‘house’ feed. Saves a couple things from needing attention.